Elam vs Frost: Texas Death Match – Round 1

[dropcap]O[/dropcap]n October 19, after a long run of on again off again internal debate, I wrote a short, admittedly snarky and provocative piece about PUA and Game; to wit, Chateau Bullshit. My intent was two-fold. One, to take a swing at the dumb and decidedly dodgy notion that pussyism, the ideology of PUA’s, is integral to human male development, and two, to take a needed shot at some of the tongue-shite™ about MRA’s that has emanated from the ineptly called “other side of the MRM coin.”

For the purpose of this event, I don’t think targeting individuals in that respect is going to be anything but distracting. We already know the rift is there. Or, as blogger G.L. Piggy called it, “[T]he fault line that has always existed between MRAs and practitioners of Game.”

As to my piece that caused so many panties to get in a twist, I openly acknowledge that I could have written a lot more substance into it, but the fact is that in terms of the basic premise, not much else was needed, except to those who need it spelled out, and this “debate” will serve that purpose well enough.

After I wrote that article I was quickly attacked (no, that isn’t a complaint) by someone who calls himself Frost, who wrote a response over on Inmalafide.com, a valued site driven by the great and terrifying Ferdinand Bardamu. It was actually not Frosts first effort at lecturing MRA’s on what they ought to do, and taking a look at that can help put some of this in perspective.

Another piece he wrote also posted to Ferd’s site on October 24 It is titled “Men’s Rights Activists: You Will Never Win the Battle You’re Fighting.”

This was apparently not a response to me, but something meant to enlighten all of us down here in the ranks of us “spineless pussies,” as another hostile reaction inferred.

Please bear with the slight diversion into the second mentioned piece by Frost. It serves to illustrate one valuable point.

In that particular article, he starts things off with noting “The definitive MRA publication is The Spearhead, an online magazine that features articles by a variety of regular columnists and guest writers.”

Most of you will see the problem out of the gate with that, considering that The Spearhead, though a chest of gold, is not an MRA website, much less the definitive one. All you have to do is ask the man who runs it, W.F. Price, who is not an activist.

I brought this up not to tear into all the fallacies in that article (which I could easily do) but to point out that from the outset, mercy points will have to be given my opponent. He is not very well informed about the MRM.

That being said, this exchange will all come down on my part to supporting my contentions in the Chateau Bullshit piece, and that means a more detailed critique of Game and PUA (which have to be separated) as well as presenting my unimpeachable and pristine rationale for a superior alternative.

I will do that with vigor before we are done here, but the matter at hand now is to respond to Frost’s first “attack,” and set the record straight on the most glaring of his initial misconceptions.

I will use excerpts from his article, the entirety of which can be read here.

Oh, and a disclaimer. I do not pretend to speak for anyone but myself. I consider my opinions on the MRM, broadly defined, to be just that, my opinions. Acknowledging this in advance will save me a lot of “IMO’s” through the debate, and hopefully save knee-jerkers from telling me unnecessarily that I don’t speak for all MRA’s. I will copy and paste this in the comments for the terminally unobservant.

OK, ready? Let’s do it.

First, Frost says this:

I am sympathetic to the values and goals of the Men’s Rights Movement, to which Paul is a valuable contributor. But the movement is heading for a split.”

Let’s dispense with this nonsense up front.  There is no connection between MRA’s and PUA’s. Sure, there is some crossover in web traffic, and one area of shared interest in human sociobiology, but that is where it begins and ends. There is no unity between the two camps and even less in the way of philosophical similarity. All one has to do is just look at the content on MRA and PUA websites.

The results, in terms of content and focus, look something like this:

[box icon=”none”]MRA: False rape accusations[/box]

[box type=”alert” icon=”none”]PUA: Getting pussy[/box]

[box icon=”none”]MRA: Family law[/box]

[box type=”alert” icon=”none”]PUA: Getting pussy[/box]

[box icon=”none”]MRA: Feminist governance[/box]

[box type=”alert” icon=”none”]PUA: Getting pussy[/box]

[box icon=”none”]MRA: Erosion of civil rights[/box]

[box type=”alert” icon=”none”]PUA: Getting, well, you know…pussy.[/box]


What the fuck, are we not supposed to know what it is that the “artists” are picking up? And do they ever even pretend to be concerned with anything else? And that is what is really at issue here. Picking up women is fine. Trying to pass it off as something more than it is, well, not so much.

Frost’s imagined split is like the looming divide between bird watchers and spelunkers. We expect them to be at war any minute now.  All they have to do is figure out where they have any real estate to fight over. The war may be on indefinite hold as the bird watchers are watching birds, none of which live in caves.

And this really brings me to the opportunity to deal with something else here that has to be said, especially since I am focusing on PUA only in this post – as opposed to Game, which I will address at length later.

We must accept that on the broad scale that PUA is part of the men’s movement. Note, I did not say men’s rights movement.  The fact is that men, in several ways, are beginning to change, to adapt, with greater or lesser efficacy, to an avalanche of changes in our coexistence with women.

In that light, we have a lot of camps in our vacillating world. This includes MRA’s, Gamers, PUA’s, male feminists, manginas, and traditionalists that have made some adjustments to the new gender world order. The different groups are diverse and often divergent, but all of them are part of a slowly shifting and changing “men’s movement.”

With that in mind, think of PUA’s as the Amway of the men’s movement.  They are constantly recruiting, selling, and recruiting some more, which is why they sniff around the outskirts of activist operations like this.  They smell DVD sales and enrollment in classes on how to walk up to a woman and say your name without stuttering. Cutting edge stuff.

They cloak all this nonsense in a lot of chest thumping and brio, imagining that non PUA’s are a bunch of chumps who aren’t very skilled with women.

Remember, it all comes back to the pussy, which also brings us back to another one of Frosts huge misconceptions; that being that somehow he got the idea that I was preaching celibacy – or even practicing it.

He says of my “advice,” in his piece: “A man who follows it will remain a lifelong celibate. Also perhaps, a lifelong A Voice for Men reader, as his celibacy breeds more bitterness and thus more susceptibility to Paul’s particular brand of self-help advice for the modern man.”

Just for the record I am almost 10 years into a relationship with a woman. I have never advocated, for or against, celibacy, but my experience (I never called it advice) yielded a glut of butt, assuming, of course, that is all you are interested in.

To wit, take a listen to this. I put it up a year and a half ago on YT.


You see, doing what I did resulted in a whole slew of women lining up for summa dis. It was as easy as not giving a shit.  I didn’t need lines or come on’s or a fucking book of tactics. All I needed to do was choose one if I liked her. If the intent was celibacy, I failed miserably.

Now, there is much more to this that I will get to in my next post, but what I am asserting, for men interested in getting laid, as well as being interested in screening out the most obvious of potential problem women, is that they will get a lot more benefit from understanding a much bigger picture than is offered by PUA.

Where PUA fails, and fails at its most miserable, is that it only invests enough in the understanding of Evo-psych to result in a shot of leg. And they invest even less in the reasonable understanding that tail no longer comes without some serious risks that demand any rational man look way past potential notches on his belt.  That is something that would be different, in my estimation, if these guys were anywhere near as successful as they claim.

So the things that make up the bigger, more important picture will be a big surprise to a lot of guys that think PUA is the way to go, but nothing new to those that already know better.

One thing I will address now comes from Frost’s own words. He says, of his imagined divide in our respective camps, “On one side will be the reasonable and principled Men’s Rights Activists, who will recognize and respect the desire of men to improve their lives, including their relationships with women.”

Of course, now anyone who wants to can go read PUA sites and sort through all the scheming, calculation, manipulation and conning done to find a dark wet hole for their Twinkie to soak in – oh, sorry, I meant to say “improve their lives and their relationships with women.” Then they can come back to AVfM and talk about all those principles.

Much more on those principles later, but right now, as I mentioned in the video, most men seek women out like trained seals doing tricks for a scrap of fish. PUA offers you pay-for-service instructions on how to balance beach balls on your nose a little longer, and clap your flippers a little louder, and abso-fucking-lutely nothing else. It’s begging lessons for pussy paupers, but you might tend deny that and believe them when they tell you it makes you a player because every time they make their pitch on their websites, the text is embedded in the proximity of some tasty looking tits and ass. Budweiser sells really shitty beer the same way.

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