“We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.”
In Part One of my interview with RooshV, we discussed his origins and his early days in the pickup scene, his experiences overseas, his thoughts on Game/Pickup, American and foreign women, and lastly, Feminism. In today’s second and final installment of my interview with him, we move from the personal to the decidedly political, with Roosh giving his thoughts on Social Justice Warriors, the Manosphere in general and the MRA and MGTOW ends of it more specifically, what he sees as the future of the entire ball of wax, and gives his take on some of the biggest news stories of the past few months or so. Stay tuned for some “postscript” concluding thoughts by yours truly after the whole thing ends.
QUESTION: That brings me to a piece you wrote last year that, in my view, was perhaps the single best essay ever written addressing the darkside of what some have referred to as “Social Justice Warriors”; the previous year seems to have seen them experiencing a number of faux pas and setbacks – the UVA/Rolling Stone scandal is a case in point, among other things. You suggested that not only were the SJW crowd seemingly hell-bent on doing away with norms and traditions that have been the cornerstone of Western civilization, but you took it a step further in suggesting that what motivates SJWs is a complex of deeply personal demons. Could you elaborate a bit on these points?
ROOSHV: Social Justice Warriors are the more militant wing of feminism and liberalism, though lately it’s becoming hard to tell the two apart since their beliefs share a huge overlap. They represent the progressive movement’s step-wise evolution to extremism as a result of continuous victories over the past few decades, and so they have decided to punish a broader range of normal male or masculine behavior as sexist, “cisgendered,” or whatever made-up word they are fond of using at the moment.
I’m not too worried about them going into 2015 because the mainstream is quickly finding out they are genuinely mentally ill, emotionally unstable, or just outright insane. They did well when they were a bit more moderate in their equality demands, but gamergate has revealed their true aim of female superiority at all costs based on a program of emotions and feelings instead of reason and facts. Gamergate has gone so poorly for them in terms of public relations that you’ll see less people voluntarily label themselves as a “social justice warrior”–it is becoming more of a dirty word than even “liberal.”
I predict that within a year or two they will burrow themselves deeply on Tumblr while dying off from a vitamin D deficiency due to lack of sunlight.
Q: OK, let’s get to the really good stuff. Over the past few years, you’ve said some pretty harsh things about what some have referred to as the Manosphere, and a particular subset of it known as the Men’s Rights Movement. Among other things, and I’m quoting you directly here, you said:
“Last time I checked, the government is not forcing me to interact with American girls. They are not forcing me to live in Washington DC. I can improve my station any way I want. The reason is because I’m from the motherfucking United States of America. If I can’t figure out how to improve my appearance, learn some game, make some money from an internet side business, travel abroad to fuck women, and find happiness in the world, then no one can. I don’t need the American government to look after my interests, because I can chase after my own. Instead of listening to Paul Elam tell me that men are getting fucked, I will step out of the house and find a girl who wants to get fucked by me.”
“At its peak, the non-MRA portion of the manosphere excelled at teaching men how to get laid while laying down Chris Brown-style pimp slaps on feminists. It was great: guys were simultaneously sharing important knowledge and making the world a better place. I’ve happily met over 200 of my readers by now, but I wouldn’t dare meet a lot of these fat old dudes who are the fastest growing segment of the manosphere today. It’s one thing to complain about having to work hard to improve your station, but it’s another thing to complain while hoping to bang a female manosphere commenter who is a 4 on her best day. The worst part of it is that guys are drooling over old manosphere women who are already married. I don’t associate with these people in real life, so why would I do so online?
Don’t read the writings of men who don’t get laid. If a man can’t solve the challenge of getting his dick wet, he’s a poseur and internet warrior. He’s a bloviator, a troll. Don’t read the writings of men who don’t know how to walk up to a woman and start a conversation. Don’t read the writings of men who lavish attention on female commenters, because if he was getting laid in real life, he wouldn’t even notice them. Game is an obligatory pursuit for the Western man in 2013, and if he is not pursuing it, he’s not someone worth listening to. He’s weak and scared. He needs to talk to women instead of spending hours a day nurturing his beloved manosphere personality. His world view, contaminated by a lack of female intimacy, will lead you down the wrong path. These fools have tainted a community of men that exclusively stood for getting laid and spreading truth, but now rushes to pardon obvious fakes like Minter.”
“What strikes me in manosphere criticisms is the shock that our ideas are actually being accepted by men. I see many comments that go along the lines of “I don’t believe this part of the web exists!” and “Why are people following this?!”
It’s very simple: we provide answers for men. We help them get laid. We help them make money. We help them with travel. We help them enter relationships with feminine women. We help them lift heavy weight, become healthier, and improve their appearance. We help them navigate a rapidly changing world where men are being pushed aside.”
Now, I gotta tell you Roosh, these are some pretty pointed remarks by you – and, there does seem to be a running “beef” between the MRA/MGTOW end of the Manosphere, and the more PUA end of it. What do you say about this apparent schism, why does it exist, and do you see a coming to terms, or even a uniting of forces among the major factions? Also, with regard to your own remarks as per above, could you elaborate a bit as to why you said what you did?
R: I think I can count on my hands how many times I’ve publicly criticized men’s rights in the past five years. That said, my main issue with men’s rights is that it’s too dependent on pleasing and convincing the existing power structure and brainwashed masses, instead of giving awakened men the tools today to make a positive difference in their lives when it comes to women, financial success, health, and happiness.
At the same time, I do see their point that individual strategies have limitations in environments that become increasingly hostile to men. For example, I’m in Poland where they just passed their own version of the Violence Against Women Act. This means that even if I find the sweetest, most feminine girl here thanks to my game efforts, I’m taking a big risk in marrying her because the state may choose to interfere in our relationship and lock me up for a false domestic violence allegation.
I’ve come to the conclusion that we need both individual strategies and mass activism to help men. A strategy of only game is temporary if feminists continue to implement anti-male laws that criminalize game or masculine behaviors, and a strategy of only activism won’t aid men much if men don’t have the social skills to meet and connect with women or have the confidence and knowledge to take risks that improve their lives.
While men’s rights and game/red pill should keep each other honest, I also don’t think it makes much sense to actively battle with each other. Even if I don’t agree with everything men’s rights is doing, their victories will ultimately help men, and so therefore I hope they do succeed with their goals. At the same time, they should accept that game does work and has allowed scores of men achieve the intimacy and relationships they desire.
Q: Yea, I’ve always felt that if the entire Manosphere formed up like Voltron, we could really make some things happen, instead of quibbling over stuff that at the end of the day, really isn’t all that important. Let me ask you about your take on the MGTOW wing of the Manosphere – they seem to be a number of men who are kind of doing a “civil disobedience” kind of thing by dropping out of society – going off the grid to varying degrees, and disengaging with women. There was a big writeup about it recently called the Sexodus; and there was a book written about too, called “Men on Strike.” What are your thoughts about this aspect of the Manosphere? Do you think the MGTOW movement will wind up making a big impact or will they be inconsequential in the overall scheme of things?
R: MGTOWs take the red pill, rightly realize that modern life is getting harder for men, and then… quit. In the one life that we all get, they have decided that the best way to spend it is to let time pass them by, be spectators as if watching a sporting match, and not even try to work for the pleasures that it still has on offer. Their laziness is not admirable and not deserving of respect from men who do work hard at trying to game the system (or fight it) to squeeze whatever drops of happiness on this earth are left for men. I highly suspect that their lack of drive or motivation could be related to depression or other hormonal problems.
Since their “movement’ requires absolutely no effort or activism, it will undoubtedly grow by leaps and bounds as it perfectly speaks to the millennial generation of men who have low work ethic along with an entitled attitude that the benefits of existence should be served to them on a platter for merely breathing, just like their millennial female counterparts.
On the bright side, at least, is that they are so passive and meek that they don’t bother anyone. I think these low ambition and low testosterone men, who are like Japanese herbivores in their disturbing lack of interest in sex, should be left alone, though I won’t allow their game denialism and poisonous laziness to infect the sites I operate.
Q: I see. Let me ask you about another very well known, and controversial, concept: the “Red Pill.” There have been several attempts toward explaining what this metaphor is, by both sides of the pro/con debate on the Manosphere; but, as arguably one of its best known denizens, could you please explain what you think this term means, and why it’s so very important in the worldview of so many Manospherians?
R: If you want to start a fight in the manopshere, a good way is to offer up a definition of the red pill. That said, my own definition wouldn’t be far from its original usage in describing the search for truth, no matter how politically incorrect, but I understand that it has now come to mean “anti-narrative” in that it is opposed to the bizarre stories spun in the mainstream that inaccurately describe gender relations, culture, race, politics, religion, and so on. The red pill is the hard, bitter, and “offensive” truth of our reality.
Q: As I’m sure you know, some truly horrible events have gone down in Paris earlier this week, and I wanted to get your reaction to it, along the following lines:
We know from criminological study, that mass murderers, terrorists, serial killers and the like, often – not always (the BTK killer comes to mind as an exception) – but often, tend to be guys who are loners, with nonexistent romantic/sexual lives with women. I haven’t looked into it yet, but if history along these lines is anything to go by, five gets us ten that the terrorists in France would fit this profile as well. If I am indeed correct, could you please speak to this, and what it means for the world at large along sexual politics lines?
R: I can’t speak for Islamist extremists, but Western extremists who have gone on murderous rampages never had steady girlfriends or much sexual experience (I challenge anyone to bring forth more than one case where a mass murderer left behind a nurturing and pretty girlfriend). The media is not allowed to point out that their sexual failures as nice guys contributed to putting them in a state of despair that pushed them in murder. I explained this in the Elliot Rodger case and was quickly attacked by Raw Story, who accused me of blaming women for these rampages.
Women can have sex with whoever they want (and they do), but if you want to know why some Western men lose all hope in life, look no further than those women passing them by for bad boys who make them sexually excited. The media does a good job lamenting for victims, but not when identifying root causes of modern problems.
Q: I’m not sure if you’re following the Bill Cosby situation here in the States, but toward the end of last year something like two dozen women, mostly white I would add, came out with allegations that he sexually assaulted them using drugs and drink as his method. Both his real-life wife and tv-show wife from “The Cosby Show” have come out in defense of his reputation, but the ordeal has taken its toll on Cosby; last year he resigned his board position from Temple U here in Philly, and his tour up in Canada has been met with hecklers and protesters. Thus far, no prosecutor has brought any legal charges against Cosby. What do you make of these developments from your unique perspective of someone who observes sociosexual relations between men and women in our time? Some, and this includes Cosby’s wife, Mrs. Camille Cosby, have likened what happened to Cosby, to the recent UVA/Rolling Stone “college campus gangrape” scandal – and this is an extra-judicial attempt to tar and feather a Black man, bypassing the court system in the process. Do you agree or disagree or not, and why?
R: It’s suspect that Cosby has been accused of crimes many decades after the fact without a scrap of evidence. Why should we take a woman’s word for it when they have falsely accused so many men of rape in the past? Until I see some type of evidence that Cosby did rape these women, or he confesses to the crime, I don’t believe the accusations.
The harsh treatment Cosby is now getting stems from the fact that our culture believes women are infallible creatures who would never lie for personal gain. Men in the manopshere know better. The two most logical reasons for why these women are now coming forward is either to revive some type of declining career or to get a payout. It’s definitely not to take a rapist off the streets; otherwise they would have gone to the police the night after they were supposedly raped.
If Cosby really is a rapist then the women who are accusing him now absolutely did not care about leaving a horrible rapist on the loose for decades by not filing a police report. In that case, maybe they hate women more than Cosby does.
Q: We’re winding it down now, so let’s discuss a bit about your views for the future, first with you, and secondarily with the Manosphere at large. So, with more than a dozen self-published and highly popular books under your belt, a string of successful websites, one of them a media site in its own right, and you having covered virtually all of Europe and a goodly portion of Latin America, what’s next for Roosh? What’s he doing, say, five years from now? What will be different then, from today in early 2015?
R: I’ve accomplished all the major goals I set out to do in my mid 20’s when it comes to travel, writing, women, and lifestyle, so there is no longer a burning desire within me that strives for something more. Instead, I’ve entered a sort of maintenance mode where I want to keep my gains while incrementally improving on my existing projects and habits. I am content with a normal day-to-day existence in spite of it having a small number of new adventures and achievements.
It’s impossible for me to imagine my life in 5 years, but I’d be surprised if I wasn’t still writing and living outside the United States. I do wonder how my relationships with women will change since in the past 5 years I’ve gone from the hyper-promiscuity of notch and flag hunting to finding more value and meaning in semi-stable relationships. I don’t believe in the institution of marriage, but having a kid wouldn’t be a nightmare scenario like before.
Q: You’ve made a number of very interesting predictions for the Manosphere over the past few years, and I think it is fair to say that what you have foreseen has been borne out by real world events. As we begin 2015 coming off a highly eventful year on the sexual politics and gender war fronts, I want to ask you: where does the Manosphere go from here? Do you see the Men’s Rights Movement continuing to make headway in the media and political spheres, despite what appears to be a coordinated attack these days by the latter, culminating in a very personal and nasty piece ran by Buzzfeed about A Voice For Men founder, Paul Elam? Do you think that more such “drive-by pieces” by the media are in the offing for other “luminaries” of the Manosphere? Do you see the varying factions of the Manosphere joining forces and doing some kind of wider advocacy for Men’s Issues? Will Game & Pickup be banned or otherwise made illegal? What’s your view of the future – say, within the next five years?
R: I think we’re going to simultaneously see advancement and defeat for the manosphere in dozens of small battles over the next five years, but there will be no death blow as long as we stand strong. By this I mean that all spheres (MRA, red pill/game, MGTOW) will continue to increase their readership by large numbers while at the same time they are put under heavy pressure by the cultural elite, who will categorize their activism or beliefs as illegal. We’re already seeing this with some parts of game whereby approaching women during the day is now “street harassment” and being persistent in the bedroom is “rape.” While our bullhorn is large, we have little to no power to stop the mainstream’s efforts to portray us as the most horrible men in the world.
The Buzzfeed hit piece on Paul is a good example of their lack of integrity and ethics. They crafted the end result they wanted before a single word was written and then used hook and crook to get it. On one hand, such a piece will help A Voice For Men get additional readers, but on the other it brainwashed an even greater number against the usefulness of men’s rights ideas. Now many men who could have been helped by AVFM believe that it is evil. Just the other day there was a prominent suicide by a man who was depressed because he had been unable to have sex with a woman. My guess is that at some point he came across an article bashing game, and so didn’t even consider its usefulness. The narrative trumps men’s lives, a fact that shouldn’t surprise a single MRA.
The best thing we can do is to simply survive. Paul must continue his work in the face of a hostile mainstream that may result in violence and I must continue operating Return Of Kings and teaching men how to enter relationships with women. At this point in the game it matters less that we have a huge impact than not allowing ourselves to be silenced while continuing to provide a platform for men who are tossed aside because they don’t believe in their own emasculation.
One remaining question is if we can gain power and influence faster than our enemy. My instinct tells me that simply can’t happen, and only a societal decline or frightening collapse will wake up the masses. Society is on such a self-destructive track that it’s possible we can win just by hanging in there and letting our enemies eat themselves. By then, however, there won’t be much to do but stare at a pile of ashes and for us to say, “Told you so.”
MUMIA ALI: Roosh, I want to thank you so much for taking the time out of what must be a pretty busy schedule to have a virtual sitdown and chat with me and the AVFM audience; here’s hoping they enjoyed it as much as I have. Much appreciated, and here’s to your continued success. Salute, bro!
ROOSHV: Thanks for the interview and also for the good questions. You brought out a lot of things in my mind that I hadn’t had the chance to share yet.
I want to thank everyone out there for taking the time out to read this interview, and I want to especially thank the powers that be, and Mr. Paul Elam and Mr. Dean Esmay (the latter of whom is my unofficial editor and “conscience”) for giving me the green light for this project. In light of all the activity this interview has generated in as many days, I think a few concluding thoughts are in order.
First, the obvious question: Why Roosh, and why here? Well, the short and simple answer to both is because, it is hard to think up anyone else on the Manosphere scene who is as compelling a figure as him. To be sure, our own Paul Elam is most definitely a force to be reckoned with – just look at the flurry of MSM attention and focus he’s garnered, and the month ain’t even over yet – but there is a huge difference between the two men that, in my view, makes the difference between one being a hella interview subject, and the other, to be frank, not.
Roosh is an open book in the way that Paul, by his own stated wishes, is not. Sure, Paul could expound on the issues pertinent to men in our time, and they ARE important – but let’s be honest here. Interviews are interesting because they tell us something about the inner life and motivations, that forces and contours that shape the interview subject. Roosh is very forthcoming in this regard, while Paul has made it abundantly clear that certain aspects of his life are off limits to public examination. In that I regard a person’s private life as sacrosanct, and would never even think of doing what Buzzfeed’s Adam Serwer and Katie J.M. Baker did to Paul, to me there would really be no interview to be had. And while one could argue that there are many other notable figures out there on the Manosphere landscape, many of those same people tend to fly under pseudonyms and the like – a clear signal that they don’t particularly wish to go balls-out in the manner that Roosh has been all-too-eager to do with me.
Another reason why I wanted to do this interview with Roosh was because I simply got tired of the MSM doing hatchet jobs on the guy. That, for the umpteenth time, doesn’t mean that I’m in agreement with everything he says, writes or does, but it does mean that I want the guy to get a fair shake, and it was becoming abundantly clear to me that he wasn’t gonna get it from the Cathedral Media. Since I very much consider AVfM to be a media force in its own right, I decided to take a leap of faith that I could do just as good a job, if not better, in interviewing one of the biggest and best known names in the Manosphere, as any mainstream journalist. I wanted to humanize Roosh – not whitewash or sanitize him – but rather to offer much needed nuance to both him and his writings. I mean look, let’s face it – is anyone out there cool with some of their more heated moments being broadcast to the world as a sum-total representation of who they are as a person? We’ve all been there, present company included, and I would like to think that such outbursts form only a sliver of who we are in our totality.
Since Part One of my interview with Roosh ran, Paul Elam himself has deigned to enter the fray, and in so doing, has presented quite a contrast with Roosh – a marked generational divide here, as Paul is literally old enough to be Roosh’s dad – and that, among a great many other things, only adds to the many layers and textures of the Manosphere that I’ve come to know and love over the past five years of my life, warts and all. Indeed, that Roosh and Paul exist in the same space, and were in a very real sense, brought together by a Black man, only goes to show the world that far from the hype, the Manosphere is a variegated place, with as many points of view and areas of specialty and interest, as there are differing types of men (and women!) themselves. Never again can those who our critics say, that the Manosphere is “all this” or “all that”; we are much more complex than that.
One of the big points of contention that was broached in the wake of Part One of this interview, was in the very idea of Game & Pickup being a viable option for mating for men in our time. Quite a few of its detractors, held up more traditional modes of mating, and made it a point to highlight the desire for sharing, intimacy and yes, even abiding love with a special someone out there. We can quibble over the left and right of things until the cows come home, but here again this is a clear and present proof that, not only is there a great degree of heterodox views on the topic of mating, but that a significant portion of the Manosphere highly values relationships and takes it very, very seriously – a direct refutation of the notion by our interlocutors, that the Manosphere is shot through with knuckle-dragging misogynists.
But I guess, at the end of the day, the reason why I wanted to do this interview, was because I wanted to make people – friend and foe alike – think. To really take a step back, put down their preconceived notions and misconceptions, and just consider what is actually being said. And even if they came away still disagreeing with Roosh, the Manosphere, AVfM, Paul Elam, heck, even yours truly – that they couldn’t say with a straight face that there weren’t some highly legitimate points being made. If indeed people came away with that idea, I will have done my job.
TL;DR: Not all Manospherians are like that.
Thanks for reading.
Mumia Ali, aka Obsidian
Feb 19, 2015