“Street Harassment” debate for mashable.com ends with a thud

Recently I was contacted by Stephanie Buck of mashable.com. She wanted my take on the so-called “Street Harassment” video and after getting my response said she wanted me to participate in a debate with a feminist using short, written exchanges and possibly video. I agreed.

A few exchanges in, Ms. Buck went dark.

Quelle surprise.

I decided that there was little point in wasting the observations on that video, so I am going to present them here, along with all communications I had with Ms. Buck in the order that they happened. Enjoy.

Stephanie:

Oct. 30

Hi Paul,

I’m the features editor at Mashable, where we’re discussing story ideas around catcalling and sexual harassment. You may have heard about the video of the woman in New York who got catcalled over 100 times within 10 hours of walking throughout NYC.

I understand that you advocate for an end to domestic violence and harassment against all people. Therefore, I wonder if your position might echo or sympathize with what many men are feeling and trying to articulate in response to this video: for example, that women should take this treatment as a compliment, and that men experience harassment too.

I wonder if you’d be willing to contribute to Mashable. I’d like to locate two men to engage in a respectful and intelligent written debate about catcalling. The conversation and online commentary around this video is fairly split, especially between men. Some find it appalling, and others still insist that women should feel proud, that as long as men aren’t aggressive physically or sexually, it’s ok.

Would you be interested in pairing up with someone to voice your position?

Cheers,

Stephanie

..

Paul

Oct. 30

Hi Stephanie,

Actually, that sounds like it could be an interesting discussion. I am interested, especially if you are serious about the tone being civil. More info, please.

Paul

..

Stephanie

Oct. 30

That’s great to hear, Paul. I’m still in the process of signing up someone on the other side of the fence. But mainly, I’d like this to be an intelligent discussion about the two sides of the catcalling coin, from the men’s perspective.

I plan to send along prompts to each participant, then act as the go-between and pass each other’s responses to each of you, basically how a oral debate would go, but on paper. I’d also like to extend (and encourage) each of the participants to record either an informal video or audio clip with opening statements, perhaps discussing the recent video, and your take on it. That would be limited to probably a couple minutes or less.

How does all this sound to you?

..

Paul

Oct. 30

Sounds like a great discussion. Video and writing are both fine as long as I can present the complete unedited exchanges on my venue as well.

The fact is that I am not “pro” cat calling. In fact, I am against it for a number of reasons, but I think those reasons will provide a great counter to what I would expect from the other side.

And no worries. The only way I will participate in this kind of discussion is in a civil and congenial way. Not interested in slugging it out with anyone.

I am leaving tomorrow to go to give a lecture in the Atlanta area, but I will be back Sunday night.

Please let me know if you need anything else.

…

Stephanie

Oct 30

Would you be able to tell me a little bit about the perspective you plan to bring? I want to make sure we’d pair you with the right person, that your experiences are at least complementary, if not entirely opposite. Basically, give me a short stump speech about your reaction to this catcalling video and the resulting discussion.

Thanks.

..

Paul

Oct 30

Well, first, a couple of minor nits. Defining each one of the recorded exchanges as “harassment” is stretching credibility to the breaking point. “Good Morning” is not harassment. Neither is “God bless you,” last I heard.

There were several statements I think were inappropriate, and maybe a couple of that I think crossed a line into intimidation, or at least the intent to make her feel uncomfortable – particularly the man who walked next to her for five minutes.

There are questions that come to my mind, such as, are men not allowed to approach women they are attracted to anymore? Are they not allowed to speak? Or is any form of approach to a woman unknown to you now a form of intimidation and harassment?

And what are the dynamics of sexual power really at play here? Is she a victim of “100” incidents of harassment or is she just a really attractive woman in tight clothing eliciting a very human response to her sexual power? How many of those men, had she stopped and talked to them, would have been willing to reach for their “power” (money) to keep her interested in continuing the connection?

Any analysis we make of the video must also include the fact that the woman was large breasted, dressed in a tight top that accentuated her breasts, which were often visibly bouncing as she walked. This is going to increase the amount of attention.

I also find it unusual, indeed questionable, that the video purports to show men of varied demographics, but is actually dominated by black and Latino men.

I don’t catcall women personally for three main reasons. The first two reasons are tied in order of importance. I don’t want to make a stranger feel uncomfortable. And I don’t want to give women power to make me reduce myself to being lame.

The last reason is that I don’t want to say things to women and have it go to their heads.

Yes, there are women, lots of them, who enjoy overtly or covertly sexual attention from strangers. I think it feeds their egos. Don’t want to be part of that.

All in all, this video is a fail. It conflates too much, groups too many different behaviors into one, and also appears racially targeted.

I will be happy to have an open, civil exchange with anyone who feels differently.

Cheers

Paul

..

Stephanie

Oct 31

Thanks much, Paul. Exactly what I was looking for. I think your perspective definitely represents one side of the debate that’s happening around this video. I’ll be in touch soon.

..

Stephanie

Nov 4

Hi Paul,

I wanted to circle back on this and see if you’re still up for it. We’ve found someone for you to debate — happy to let you know who that is and send out some prompts if you’re ready.

Thanks,

Stephanie

..

Paul

Nov 4

Sounds good. Ready when you need me.

..

Stephanie

Nov 4

OK, great. I’ll be pairing you with Amani Herron. Here is the bio he shared with me: “I am the founder of the Truth From The Basement blog and a freelance political communications specialist. Specific to this topic, I am a domestic violence advocate and former President of a Men’s Issue, which is an organization in Syracuse, NY dedicated to redefining masculinity and accepting that ending sexual and relationship violence are men’s issues as well.”

I’m going to direct the first question at you, Paul. And let’s please try and keep responses to under 200 words, or 3 paragraphs. I will edit them down if they go on too long or become inappropriate. Same goes for Amani. Of course, you’ll get to see my edits before we publish. And I hope it goes without saying that if things get out of hand or off topic, I reserve the right to kill this piece and decide not to publish.

Cool with that?

If so, here’s the first question: What was your first reaction after you watched the Hollaback video?

..

Paul

Nov 4

My first reaction to the Hollaback video was that it was highly deceptive. “Good morning” and “God bless you” are now sexual harassment and intimidation? In whose distorted worldview? There was some behavior in the video that I believe crossed a line, like following a stranger closely on the street for several minutes. However, much of what is shown is innocuous, even friendly.

The video also sends a rather chilling message to men that they should avoid conversing with women altogether. The undertone hints at “speak when spoken to,” and those who break that rule are guilty of harassment. What kind of message is this to men who were, despite the video’s false claim of diversity, almost exclusively African American and Hispanic? Not that it is healthy to send that message to anyone of any color.

The crypto-bigotry in all of it is actually quite stunning, and the producers of this video should be called out on it.

Certainly, street harassment is an issue worth exploring for both sexes (yes, it happens to men, too), but there is enough of the real thing that we need not target every tip of the hat and daily greeting as a street crime.

..

Stephanie

Nov 5

Thanks, Paul. I’ve sent your thoughts to Amani. Waiting for him to respond, then I’ll hand it over to you for a rebuttal.

..

Amani (via Stephanie):

You’ve just perfectly illustrated why it takes so much to even have this conversation. You watched the video, have heard from countless women saying it mirrors their daily lives, and your takeaway is that it’s deceptive and to tell them how they should feel?

The conversation is simple: Do you believe that women as human beings deserve to be able to walk down the street without a constant stream of unwanted conversation and commentary? Most of us hate telemarketers no matter how polite they are; why then would we excuse that behavior on the street where there is the added dimension of physical encroachment in that space?

Now, I’ll certainly acknowledge the video’s racial politics were disturbing. The notion that street harassment is isolated to black or Latino men is demonstrably false, and omitting white men deserves calling out. That said, there is a difference between addressing the racist subtext in the video and using that racism to divert attention from addressing the topic all together. We’re quite capable of having both discussions at once.

…

Paul

Nov 6

All conversations are easier when focused, honest and include both sides, not directives to just listen and believe without question.

I have heard from many women who say this video does not mirror their daily lives, and women who interpreted the video the same way I did, as race-baiting, sexist and deceptive. Are they making it difficult to have a “conversation”? Are they “diverting attention” away from the topic? In your opinion do these dissenting women even have a voice?

This is not a just a conversation about women, but about people across the full spectrum of humanity. I believe all human beings are deserving of (insert ideal treatment here), but I also understand the reality of human coexistence. Sometimes it is imperfect.

There are many nuisances in life; panhandlers, strangers who talk too much, people who catcall and make inappropriate remarks, sales people, survey takers and even officious video makers.

Are we to build walls between all human beings? Are we to silence everyone so that we can all go about our business without being bothered by anyone saying “good morning”? Surely you are kidding.

It’s a sidewalk, Amani, not a red carpet.

..

Stephanie

Nov 6

Great. And I’ve now posed a question to Amani that I would like to pose to you as well, plus give you space to respond. You’ll find it here and at the bottom of the transcript, before Amani’s response:  If a man wants to talk to a strange woman, what should he consider before doing so? What is the correct approach to make sure everyone feels safe and respected?

Amani:

If a man wants to talk to a woman he doesn’t know, I’d suggest following baseline rules for human interaction. A conversation requires mutual engagement and basic decency applies; respect people’s boundaries and time, establish eye contact, and be polite. Disabuse yourself of the notion that you are owed anything in return, treat women as fellow human beings and not sexual objects, and you’ll be pleasantly surprised how easy it is.

Those attacking the video attempt to frame this conversation as threatening the right to polite greetings, or telling people not to talk to each other. That’s not an argument anyone committed to ending street harassment has ever made because it’s patently ridiculous. There is however, a difference between talking with someone and talking at them. Yelling at someone who has walked past you and shown no interest in responding is not a conversation, repeatedly doing so because they didn’t acknowledge you is harassment even when couched in pleasantries.

The conversation is simple, people should feel comfortable walking (whether on the sidewalk or the red carpet) without having to plan strategies to avoid being harassed and feeling unsafe. If you can acknowledge imperfections, why shouldn’t we work to fix them?

..

Paul

Nov 6

After watching this video, one thing a man might want to consider is whether his approach will be recorded and later painted as a street crime, regardless of what he says or how he says it.

Seriously, Amani, if saying “good morning,” is an act of harassment, then what could possibly convey safety and respect?

It is time to remove gender from the equation. Stop infantilizing women as helpless non-actors in their own world, incapable of saying, “I’m not interested,” or even, perhaps, “Hi. Good morning to you, too!”

Demonizing men in order to produce an ideological narrative intended to create fear is not going to make women safer or more respected. Men, by the way, deserve respect, too. Painting them as creeps for showing interest in a woman is highly disrespectful.

How about we frame all this in human rather than sexual or other terms? How about we don’t frame every demonstration of interest in another human being as something sinister and dangerous? How about we avoid the irrational edicts of would-be social engineers? Perhaps that will help stem the tendency to produce videos bemoaning the terrible struggles of attractive, large-breasted White women in Black neighborhoods.

Amani (via Stephanie):

Now we see what happens when you can’t argue an issue on merit. Instead of dealing in reality, you’ve tried to create your own bogeymen. You’re the one demonizing men if you see them as incapable of holding an adult conversation without harassing others.

Women are leading this conversation, not being infantilized, and have been doing so for years. Look at Feminista Jones and her work with #YouOkSis. There’s Holly Kearl the founder of Stop Street Harassment. Amanda Seales has been out front talking about it. Women of all backgrounds have been sharing their stories, writing about them and organizing around them. Amplify those voices instead of silencing them and we can have a real conversation.

If you’re afraid of being painted as a creep, then don’t be a creep and treat people with respect. When someone tells you that your behavior is disrespectful, annoying, and makes them feel uncomfortable or even threatened, a reasonable adult apologizes, tries to understand why, and then corrects it. You want to center this on a “right” to control the terms of engagement — that doesn’t supersede someone’s right to safely walk down the street in peace.

..

Stephanie

Nov 7

All right, Paul. Next question, you get first response: The woman who was in the video received numerous death threats. Why do you think that is?

..

Paul

Nov 7

This makes me do an eye-roll so hard that it requires a windup.

It’s an increasingly common modern phenomenon that ideologues will use the internet to make outlandish claims, e.g. good morning = sexual harassment, resulting in some of the most depraved morons on the internet making stupid, retaliatory comments.

This is usually followed by, “See, they are trying to silence all women! Help us fight it!” This call to action is often echoed repeatedly by the media, with a link to the latest fundraising effort on behalf of he supposedly silenced. Straight up fact, you can make a lot of money with this ploy by playing on the general decency of most human beings.

The internet is full of trolls. Some of them make rude, even threatening comments. Others make outlandish, biased and deceitful videos in order to elicit rude and even threatening comments that can then be parlayed into cash.

And that is precisely what we are seeing here. Count on a fundraiser near you, and in the end it will not make anyone, male or female, safer on the street.

…

And that, ladies and gents, is when the crickets started chirping. Or was that just a cha-ching?

Newsflash! After extended delay and about 20 minutes after we published this, I got another answer, and another question. 🙂

..

Amani:

Since Paul is still too busy slaying imaginary dragons, I’ll try to bring us back to the real world.

Rather than listening to and understanding what people are telling you they feel, those who feel their worldview threatened choose to lash out violently to protect their status quo. That’s why Paul is so callously able to dismiss rape and death threats as “increasingly common” and even somehow equate that to filming yourself walking the street for your own protection, or suggest that the video provoked it.

It’s the same instinct to maintain power that saw Mary Spears shot and killed in Detroit after rejecting a man harassing her, or Maren Sanchez stabbed in Connecticut for turning down a prom date. But instead of dealing with the fact that they don’t have a right to women’s bodies, attention, or time (or those of any other human being), people like Paul try to make themselves victims and falsely frame this around their “right” to say hello. It has never been about that and ignoring reality is an insult to everyone’s intelligence.

Contrary to the fear mongering and logical pratfalls used to criticize the video, this topic is remarkably simple: don’t harass women.

..

Stephanie:

In general, why do women treat strange men differently than men treat women? Should that double standard exist? How should women treat men in public? 

The question makes a lot of assumptions. I watched a video that was done to mimic the street “harassment” video, using a man with an exceptional physique and good looks. He was “harassed” repeatedly by women and gay men, or at least they spent enough time gathering video of him walking till they could make a two minute video documenting those “assaults.”

The double standard here is that the actions of women are either denied, downplayed or otherwise deemed insignificant. And the fact is, they are insignificant. I won’t play into this hysteria by characterizing what happened to the man as traumatic any more than someone saying “good morning” to a woman.

If you research crime statistics you will find that men are much more likely to be the victims of actual violent crime on the streets. And that is where the double standard is so incredibly glaring. Men are by far more at risk on the streets, yet we are actually debating about the evil of men trying to get the attention of a woman, and targeting minorities in the process?

Just wow.

Women should treat everyone with respect. So should men. No one should profit from the fact that at times, both don’t.

Stephanie: Nov 13

OK, one final question, which I’d like each of you to answer separately. And please keep your answer succinct, under 100 words.