Open Letter to the People of Ferguson, Missouri

Editorial note: a group of Men’s Human Rights Activists unaffiliated with AVfM, led by Chandrapal Bhasker, recently submitted this to us for publication via Facebook. Most of the signers are from outside the United States. –Eds

We the undersigned, members of the Men’s Human Rights Movement (MHRM) want to express our support for and solidarity with the citizens of Ferguson, Missouri in light of the recent violence there. Mike Brown was a young man who lost his life needlessly at the hands of a police officer and it is our intention to condemn the Ferguson police for their illegal and immoral violence against him. Brown was well loved by his family and friends and we would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge their grief, offer our deepest condolences.

A community ought to be able to trust in its leadership and police to protect it from danger. When the governmental authority and law enforcement of a community forget who they serve, we lose sight of this country’s founding principles of freedom and equality and inevitably head for institutional violence. This tragedy and others like it in recent memory like the deaths of Trayvon Martin in Florida, Eric Gardner in New York, and Kelly Thomas in California call into question the integrity of American policing and its various levels of leadership. Included in the MHRM’s concerns over integrity of leadership are the local, state, and federal legislatures which write and oversee the implementation of law and order.

In condoning and even promoting gender profiling on suspicion of crime, the possibility of racial profiling becomes inevitable. One must ask why such violence seems limited to male citizens and particularly black and poor / working-class white male citizens. One must also ask what consequences await men and boys of other racial identities if such violent profiling is allowed to continue unabated. Research suggests that 70% of street violence is experienced by males. Facts clearly indicate that most victims of police brutality and custodial deaths in the US are men. It is a shameful mockery of justice that the gender which constitutes most victims of the social violence is also targeted by the sworn protectors of the populace for horrendous individual and institutional violence.

One answer to the question of why this is the case is that men and adolescent boys are treated as potential threats and therefore as likely criminals rather than as allies in the community. In our increasingly anti-male, sexist and misandric societies male strength is mischaracterized as destructive rather than as protective or capable of good work on behalf of the community. Such prejudice often creates an environment of resentment and distrust between the police and the men of the community thus leading to a self-fulfilling judgment from one side to another. Some laws in particular support this prejudicial culture which can be discussed at another time.

It is most clear, however, that the racism of the history of the United States and of Missouri in this particular case has never truly faded from practice. When a mostly White police force has the authority to kill a Black man in a mostly Black community without evidence or reasonable cause and is not held criminally accountable, the parallels to the Jim Crow South are very obvious. Even post Jim Crow practices such as using real estate companies and migration restrictions to control the demographics of suburban districts can be credited with the segregation that can be observed in and around Ferguson. It is no surprise then that the police are more violent in the black communities and then claim that such neighborhoods are incidentally more deserving of police force.

Having said this, let it be noted that the MHRM does not condone the profiling of any race or class of people, but rather the just and accurate judgment of individuals and groups based on the merits of their actions. We do not wish to convey the idea that being White necessarily makes one guilty of racism. Instead we wish to point to the truth of this particular matter as an effort to warn against future tragedies of this sort.

Ultimately, the Men’s Human Rights Movement wants to see reform of law enforcement culture which will foster more peaceful community relations and conflict resolution. The “shoot first, ask questions later” approach ends the lives of men and hurts the hearts of their communities. The safety and rights of male citizens are no less important and worthy of care than those of anybody else. Mike Brown was a human being first, not a suspect or a criminal. Humanity is humanity regardless of class, color, race, or gender.

In solidarity,
Jordan Allen, Chief Liaison Officer, Gender Analytics Foundation

Chandrapal S Bhasker, Gender Analytics Foundation

Zachery Lorentz, Founder & Host, Untermensch Podcast

Yuan Hua Lim, President, Singapore Men & Family Welfare Organization

Deborah Kendrick, Founder, Words Within The Walls


Photo by Lovesofbread. –Eds

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266 thoughts on “Open Letter to the People of Ferguson, Missouri”

  1. The federal “Overbloating” of American law enforcement, and the subsequent at the very root of the stripping of American mens basic constitutional rights.
    The answers American citizens seek, may be a political one…vote in senators that demand the federal government stop offering law enforcement’s federal pork bloating dollars to manufacture faulty and inflammatory statistics.

    1. It amazes me how few people get this.

      Rahm Emmanuel is often quoted as saying “Let no good crisis go to waste.”

      He’s right. Every time a “crisis” happens, it is an opportunity for any government to use it’s people’s fear against them. Convincing them to hand over more, and more of their liberties.

      Until one day it gets all power. Then more men die so their blood can be “Sacrificed at the tree of liberty.”

      1. George Zimmerman represents white law enforcement as much as Elliot Rogers represented Men’s Rights advocates.

        George Zimmerman was 100% not white, and was, in fact, a pretty stand up guy as far as race relations, while Elliot Rogers was also not white and completely opposite of men’s rights advocates, but let’s not let truth or facts get in the way of a good White Men R Evil Victim Narrative.

        “Let’s you and him fight”.


        1. Men are so very easily divided against themselves. Government and their interest parties use the divide and conquer strategy.

          1. Absolutely. I hate seeing it being done here.

            Talking about sword fighting farts – there are no concrete facts demonstrating these heightened claims of racism. It’s all “perception” manipulated by media, much like the claim that false rape accusations are “rare” or rape, murder, molestation and domestic abuse by women is “rare”.

            Of all the well thought out, truth revealing and intelligent articles I’ve appreciatively read published here on AVFM – this one compares more like a man-hater article from Slate or RAW Sewage. Conjecture, unverified or false accusations, and blatant confabulations.

            Since when did members of the MHRM just start making shit up?

          2. So true. Very perceptive! The first step to not being manipulated. Like Paul’s “Plague of Modern Masculinity” and “…not before we embrace more than the hostility we feel for perceived enemies”.

            Any decade now… idk. It DOES happen here a lot. You can point it out, but I haven’t noticed people stop doing it, so I don’t bother.

            Rape, false rape, child molestation, false accusation is a good example. The hysteria demands action, it’s no-accusation-is-false, against no-accusation-is-true and I am attacked by both sides to say sometimes we just do not have truth but that does not mean truth doesn’t matter.

          3. The racism in the US criminal justice system is systemic and extreme, but it is still merely a subset of the classism that completely poisons that same system.
            The riots and protests are not just about Michael Brown.

        2. I read an insightful piece the other day..that suggested that the new manufactured statistics Alliances and “federal pork bloating triangles” that have taken over American law enforcement…..are actually now undermining American democracy.

          1. One can only expect the best!!…. Im not one to mince words, or use elongated pretentious synonyms either!!

  2. I have issues with comparing this to Jim Crow only inasmuch as we see police shootings frequently in the US and they don’t make the national news if it’s a black cop shooting a black kid, usually. I think it is more helpful to see this for what it is: a culture of the disposability of young males, which disproportionately affects young black men in this country. That would be how I see it anyway.

    1. Agree 100%. From black cop on black kid, black cop on white kid, black guy defending his home from drug addicted white kid; never see any anger over those.

      I hope this turns out to be a well thought out letter. Or perhaps it would have been better to leave well enough alone?

      Tragedies like this really only allow the worst of all races to justify and highlight their own ideological hatred’s point of view. It will allow them the ability to market their respective hatreds.

      I hope AVFM does not regret this letter, however well intentioned.

    2. I think there is a sense of “White Shame” going on with the “White cop, shooting black kid”, as well as the “Loss of Hope” argument you put forth not long ago.
      I think the hopelessness a lot of lowerclass men feel is the biggest issue here though.

      It might be 22 years ago, but I think the aftershock of the LA riots that occurred after the Rodney King travesty still resonate through our culture. So any White cop on black man/boy violence just emphasis the hopeless feeling of “It’s been 20 years and we have achieved nothing”, which is why it makes the news.

      Sadly though the race aspect of it overshadows the real issues.

      1. I don’t actually think it does any minority bloc a service to make “heroes” out of criminals like King, Brown, Martin…

        The untold story however is usually a poor, uneducated, single mother who is wholly unequipped to raise a boy into a man.

        Stories like these unjustly put the onus on THE PREDOMINANTLY MALE POLICE FORCE rather on the irresponsible breeder female who raises a thug.

        Just my opinion.

        1. I agree. We should accept that Brown probably wasn’t a model citizen, but we should also cast the blame for why the situation happened on the correct causes.
          -Single mother “Don’t need no man! (just his wallet)” Upbringings.
          -The Lack of hope for the future for these kids.
          -Demonzisation of men (and even more so of low income minority backgrounds)

          I am not revering Brown, and I think that is wrong, I just empathize with the kid for being in that situation in the first place.
          I also sympathize with the cop though for being in the situation, they really are between a rock and a hard place. They have to do their job, but at the same time they have next to no respect in society (in the US at least.) Of course some of this has to do with their predecessors abuse of power, but most cops really want to do good really.

    3. I think it’s a lot simpler than that. I think it’s just a ‘culture’ that doesn’t teach some big bullying youths that if they commit robbery by force, and then beat on a cop, they’ll likely get their asses handed to them.

    4. Poor in USA.

      Poor in the USA
      Yeah I’m Poor in the USA
      Yeah , Poor in the USA

      Don’t shoot me m*ther f*cker USA

      I agree with your POV, but would add that experiencing violence is first and foremost part of being poor in the US, which is a very violent nation in terms of the violence it utilizes to maintain the oppressive class relations inherent to corporate capitalism.

    5. Disposability of young men, yes. But the asymmetry towards just who is disposable shown in these comments is pretty ugly from my perspective. I don’t expect there would have been much protest if Brown had wrestled the gun off the cop and shot him with his own weapon. Because cops are disposable, right? He signed up for that when he joined, right?

  3. I only hope that these incessant acts of violence will open people’s eyes to the danger of a police force that is militarized in mind and equipment, but not training.

    “To protect and to serve” has become a vicious joke, repunctuated every time another young man’s bloodied body hits the street.

    1. Incessant acts of violence have occurred with police forces long, long, long before police forces were militarized in mind and equipment.

        1. A big difference in how “youths” act towards them too…You know, “single mother” spawn??
          How do you EXPECT them to act in the face of that???

          From what I see of your posts, you really need to get a clue.

          1. Have you any idea how much crime either doesn’t get reported or doesn’t make it into the “statistics” these days??

  4. Author lost all credibility in the first paragraph:

    “We the undersigned, members of the Men’s Human Rights Movement (MHRM)
    want to express our support for and solidarity with the citizens of
    Ferguson, Missouri in light of the recent violence there. Mike Brown was
    a young man who lost his life needlessly at the hands of a police
    officer and it is our intention to condemn the Ferguson police for their
    illegal and immoral violence against him. Brown was well loved by his
    family and friends and we would like to take this opportunity to
    acknowledge their grief, offer our deepest condolences.”

    So you’ve seen the evidence of the events that led up to Mr.Brown being shot to death? How do you know whether or not Officer Wilsons actions were immoral and illegal? Are you someone involved in the investigation? As far as I know, no facts have come out over the exact sequence of events which led to the unfortunate shooting of Mr.Brown.

    Depending on how it unfolded, Mr.Brown could go from being a perp who assaulted an officer to a victim or a murder in a flash. I’m not defending either side, I’m just a guy who has been patiently awaiting for the facts of the exact sequence between Officer Wilson and Mr.Brown when the encounter took place on the street.

    Cops are trained to shoot to kill in a lot of instances, not shoot to wound, If Officer Wilson did in fact overreact and murder Mr.Brown, I have no problem with him severing a long jail sentence, if he acted according to the book, I have no problem with his actions, he followed did what he was taught to do. Lets not forget, Officer Wilson has a six year record that was exemplary in a community where relations were pretty volatile between the community and police department.

    Lets wait for the concrete facts first before we start calling what happened to Mr.brown “Illegal and Immoral” because none of us know exactly what happened.

    1. Indeed. I, too, sit awaiting the results of (both) investigations. The authors lost credibility with me in paragraph six. I’m glad that being white doesn’t necessarily make me racist.

      I’m glad that would then mean that black people aren’t necessarily thieves or Asian people necessarily xenophobes. Hell…radical, hateful islamists aren’t necessarily terrorists.

      Wording and how I interpret it, I know. Still infuriating because : Western bison are brown, right? Not necessarily…There is an albino born every once in a great while.

      1. And still after the criminal proceedings there will likely be a civil one,All of this is costing taxpayers out the wazoo

        And has happened over and over again

        Costing milions

    2. Shooting to wound really is impossible. Sure, you might get lucky if your target is standing completely still when you shoot slightly-less-to-kill, or they might be still for the 5+ minutes needed for a sniper’s trajectory on a disarming shot, but the rule of thumb remains – aiming for extremities instead of centre mass means you miss, or they power through the attack enough to kill you first..

      Just stop opening fire unless you have good reason to believe the person on the other end is actually a potentially lethal threat.

      1. I wait to see if this police officer really had a good reason – or could have reasonably believe he had one.

        There has been so much marching in the pool that someone as removed and media-informed as I am has essentially zero chance of having very well educated conclusions. I’m waiting for results of factual inquiry.

          1. yes, because you obviously were there, and you know exactly what happened. because well, the cop said it, i believe it..they are saints after all right?

      2. I’ve always been told never point a gun unless you intend to shoot. I’ve personally lived to regret not pulling the proverbial trigger. Benefit of the doubt as a policy will eventually get you killed.

        A white high school kid was shot in the back while fleeing from a police officer in this small town I live in. Right on Main Street. Right in front of witnesses.

        Not a peep of protest.

        1. I’ve always said that in the US, you’re a moron to not do 100% exactly what the cops say. They say jump, you jump. They want to beat you with their crowd stick things, then you let them do it. You run and get shot, sure the police were probably not in the right, but… it’s kind of like the “I dressed like a hooker and got blackout drunk and had sex so it was rape” argument.

          Anyway, there are way too many examples of people getting shot in the US for my tastes. The big problem is probably… that everyone can own a gun. Yeah. If there were no guns, way less people would get shot, and maybe the cops wouldn’t feel like they had to fill someone with bullets for making the tiniest suspicious movement (though I do think that some police in the US are a little trigger happy sometimes).

          1. I respectfully disagree. It’s imperative every citizen learns his or her Constitutional legal rights and NOT blindly obey.

            That being said – you don’t break the law, you don’t get physically aggressive. You DON’T have the right to do that.

            Both my sons are car guys, and have driven expensive sports cars since they were old enough to work and earn them. They’ve both undergone tremendous police harassment, and “profiling” as white kids (only drug dealers drive vintage Porsches, apparently). They both have a stack of business cards from police pulling them over at least an inch thick. They’ve both been illegally arrested.

            They both know their rights, they know they do not have to agree to illegal searches, they know to ask to see the officer’s speed gun to verify false claims of speeding.

            I’ve had a police Chief openly say “I’m out to get your son”.

            Both are, miraculously, still living.

            It’s dangerous being MALE in this society no matter what age, color or stripe he may be.

            Injustice for one is injustice for all.

            Going down the Victim Olympics rat hole will do nothing to encourage solidarity among men.

          2. Indeed, but constitutional legal rights don’t mean much with half a dozen bullets in your chest imo. I don’t live in the US mind you, I’ve only spent some time there, so these sorts things aren’t issues I’ve really had to think about very much 😛

            Anyway, as far as I was saying, I guess I mean… if the cops say “stop”, you don’t hightail it out of there. If the cops say “put your hands on your head slowly”, you don’t reach into your pocket to get your wallet out for them. Things like this.

          3. You don’t have a constitutional right to run from police, but you DO have the right to refuse illegal searches and illegal orders. Politely.

          4. I agree that people have to look out for thier rights…..

            But when a cop in America has a gun drawn and leveled at you and is ordering you to take off your shirt and bark like a dog……. I would suggest you comply.

            You can do all kinds of things about it later…..but…..not if you are dead.

          5. That seems perilously close to blaming the victim of the police shooting, and that is just an apology for authoritarian murder.

          6. So you would suggest dying to make a statement rather than surviving the encounter and pursuing it lately?

            That doesn’t seem very reasonable to me.

          7. Well, all kinds of indignities are necessary to survive in the face of rampant police brutality, but let’s understand that’s what we’re discussing here.

          8. I do understand…..

            …..and I would rather survive the encounter and do something about it later than die on the spot and leave the problem for the next man.

          9. Solidarity with black men is not “going down the victim rathole”
            I’m sure you’d agree that advocacy for men’s rights includes supporting the rights of black men, and their struggles.
            Black men are one of the most demonized segments of the US population.

          10. “Black men are one of the most demonized segments of the US population”.

            I guess you’d have to define what you mean by “demonized”.

            I just read that sharks kill about 5 people per year, while hippos kill 2,900 annually. It would be accurate to say sharks are “demonized” over hippos.

            I’ve never even seen a hippo on the loose, but I have witnessed the aftermath of a shark attack in Hawaii.

            I know I demonize sharks more than hippos.

            The media has, for many years now, censored the race of those committing criminal acts while sensationalizing white cops mistreating black suspects stories.

            Like I said before – the truth is censored and obfuscated so much none of us even knows if we’re dealing with sharks or hippos anymore.

          11. More racist drivel. Your attempt to rebut my assertion that black men are “one of the most demonized segments of the US population” was to support that demonization and add to it by claiming it is legitimate to demonize black men
            You really don’t like black men much do you?
            Your just another racist right wingnut, Suzie.

          12. And “your” [sic] just another person who types as well as you rationalize the demonization of hardworking (male) police officers who exemplify male solidarity; racial, ethnic and cultural diversity; and productive use of taxpayer dollars.

          13. Stated like a good authoritarian. Unqualified support for the police, even in the face of the epidemic of police violence and murder sweeping the US, on a comments board about one of its victims.

          14. Hee hee. only an authoritarian would make such an unsupported accusation. It amounts to you are x because I say so.

          15. Let’s see: obfuscate? Check. False accusations? Check. Shaming tactics? Check. Unsubstantiated claims of persecution and oppression? Check.

            Typical feminist tactics, joe.

            You hit like a girl.

          16. Stupid taunts from the resident bigot.
            You’re a nasty racist and you ought to be ashamed, you lowlife.

          17. Susie and Joe.. Both of you had the chance to present evidence for your claims. Please agree to disagree and move on.
            Joe, please refrain from ad-homs.

          18. Calling out racism and bigotry is not an “ad-hom”
            Your website tolerates the racism and bigotry, but only warns those who condemn these vile racist commentators. How long has Susie been peddling her racism on your site’s comment boards?

          19. The problem, IMHO is the militarization of the police, which has gone hand in hand with a vast increase in incidents of police killing people.

          20. The militarization of the police is a legit topic by my standards.

            Even I, as a non-American, see it as a huge problem. Because when both the the Heritage Foundation AND the ACLU agree on something – then that is really a huge problem.

      3. “Shooting to wound really is impossible”

        The German police officer in the above picture did not have a very difficult time doing it

      1. Doesn’t that fact make you reconsider the “cop on a rampage” theory? If Brown didn’t attack Wilson, and this were a deliberate murder, where would those shots have landed? In the martial arts there’s a saying “you perform as you train”. It seems to me there would be fewer shots, and those shots would have landed center of mass, which is how Wilson would be trained to fire, and not 4 in the right arm and 2 in the head. Do you think Wilson is such a good shot that he was aiming for Brown’s arm, or such a bad shot that he couldn’t even get the first round in Brown’s chest with Brown just standing there, arms raised?

        1. So you think it’s just fine that the cops shot this man six times?
          That is a blatant rationalization for excessive and racist police violence.

          1. I’m sorry if the data seems to conflict with your class warfare rant, and if I’m treating both Brown and Wilson as individuals instead of as symbols of oppression. I’m more interested in what happened and why, and less in pimping the tragedy for political ends. I’ve seen a lot of police brutality cases come and go over the years, and certainly it’s something that we should be very concerned about, but this one just doesn’t smell like it.

          2. Class warfare rant? F*ck you and your redbaiting too Artie!
            How is pointing out that six bullet wounds indicates excessive violence a “class warfare rant.”
            I guess you’re just a stupid right wing bigot, and that’s just your knee jerk response to al issues of social justice.

          3. Bigot? Redbaiting? If you knew me you would know how hilarious that is. You would do better if you didn’t treat everyone who disagreed with you like a political punching bag. Yes, class warfare rant. There’s no indication that anything about this incident is related to race, unless you’re fixated on the race of the police officer, which would make you the racist, not him. Your insistence on treating Mr. Brown as a unit of blackness instead of as an individual capable of making mistakes would bolster that opinion. The fact that 6 rounds struck Mr. Brown doesn’t mean anything in and of itself, and if it did then you would have to argue that the Oscar Grant shooting was justified because he was only shot once. The “Cop on a rampage” theory just doesn’t work with all the data that’s been released to the public, and your steadfast clinging to it indicates not that you want justice, but that you want to burn a cop regardless of whether he was right or wrong.

          4. “The fact that 6 rounds struck Mr. Brown doesn’t mean anything in and of itself, and if it did then you would have to argue that the Oscar Grant shooting was justified because he was only shot once”
            Clearly you are ignorant of or confused about necessary versus sufficient causation. Look it up.
            Your accusations of racism are idiotic but amusing. Black men are imprisoned at seven times the rate of white men. Black men are frequently profiled and targeted by police. The recent controversy about racially motivated stop and frisk in NYC, for instance. Pointing out the social conditions underlying Brown’s killing is not denying his individuality. that is a ridiculous red herring.
            It’s become the MO of racists to echo the charges made against them. You’re calling me a racist is hilarious, and to my mind, further evidence of your own unacknowledged racism.

          5. Clearly you are a social justice warrior who is convinced your shit does not and can not stink. “Black men are imprisoned at seven times the rate of white men.” . Are you claiming that white men snuck into black neighborhoods and committed these crimes but black men were convicted instead? If not, then either those black men or other black men committed those crimes. So the statistic remains the same, begging the question what does this have to do with racism? Answer, ‘nothing’. It might say something about poverty and crime, but it has that spurious variable ‘race’ in there so it’s hard to be sure.


            Number of rounds is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition to indicate police brutality, and as I said means little in and of itself. And pointing out the social conditions IS the red herring. Or don’t you believe in the impartial application of the law?

            Speaking as someone who has been liberal all his life, your sort of illiberal progressivism is what gives liberals a bad name. Why aren’t you a radical feminist? Your identity politics and theirs would match so well.

  5. Wow, AVfM, …… like shooting yourself in the foot much publishing stuff like this?

    Ferguson has nothing to do with the MHRM, you should have taken a position that it would hold no place on this site.

    Get wise and stop it NOW.

        1. Nonsense. For one thing a lot of men are killed during police related domestic violence calls and arrests. There is a clear relevance here.

      1. I beg of MRA’s to stop letting American media spin this story away from the real story…the real story is the “overbloating” and militarization of local beet cops!!

    1. This picture is ridiculous. I mean, shooting people in the leg seems cruel. Why don’t we just start demanding that police simply shoot the knives out of criminals hands?? (<-obvious sarcasm)

      Look, I agree American cops do sometimes use excessive force and that should be investigated, but this isn't an old western serial. Guns aren't magic and police have a right to defend themselves from lethal assault. Police are taught to aim for the center of mass, because bullets are small and shooting a moving target is hard, especially in a stressful situation (like someone trying to kill you). Shooting for a smaller target (a moving leg or hand), you are much more likely to miss completely (and maybe hit a bystander). Also, when someone is moving the legs and hands move a lot more than the torso. If you miss, a charging attacker with a knife will have closed the distance and stab you. People often fire more rounds than they "need" to because you don't have time to check and see if one bullet was enough. They fire until their attacker is no longer a threat.

      I imagine the situations were very different. How fast was the drunk man the German cop shot really moving? Regardless, it still sounds like the German cop got very lucky.

        1. 1) Alcohol reduces coordination and speed. Depending on how drunk they are, maybe they can still move fast enough, but alcohol does not improve dexterity, especially when it comes to running in a straight line.

          2) I’ve been commenting on AVFM for awhile. I find it incredibly odd that an AVFM mod is (sarcastically?) telling me to get into bar fights.

          1. The second time you suggest I’m committing a strawman fallancy. You literally wrote: “Go to a bar and start a fight…” I assumed you were trying to be either sarcastic or threatening. Pointing this out isn’t a strawman. At best, you could try to claim it’s some kind of non-sequitar.

            For it to be a strawman fallancy I would have to at least somehow claim that you telling me to go bars and start fights somehow invalids your argument. I didn’t do this. I just pointed out that I thought it was extremely odd (still think it was).

            In fact, I struggle to imagine how I could even turn this into a strawman argument. Your claim that American police should/can shoot-to-wound and use fewer bullets is completely irrelevant to whether or you tell me to get into bar fights. I suppose I could try claim something like: “By telling me to get into bar fights, you illustrate a lack of understanding of the true nature of violence and therefore all your opinions regarding police violence are invalid.” However, this is really more of an ad-hominem fallacy than strawman fallacy.

          2. FFS!
            “Go to a bar and start a fight…”
            In your imagination, Jon. Not actually is obvious to any adult.
            Try this. Try that. This is a conversational tool to suggest you imagine some alternative.

          3. “Alcohol reduces coordination and speed”
            Jon, reading your comments, it’s obvious you’re not trying to be trying. (ie, you’re not being a prick) (Sorry if you’re finding that I come across as one)
            But really you need to go study the basis of building a solid argument.
            It’s a half truth, read not true, to say something like this.
            Sure, sink enough booze to kill an elephant and you won’t be much use in a fight.
            BUT bullshit. And you know it.
            Alcohol reduces inhibition waaayyyy before it inhibits much else.

          4. I’m trying to be civil, but it is getting progressively harder when it seems like people are mostly ignoring my actual point about general firearm usage and treating me like some kind of pro-police brutality bogeyman they can vent their frustrations at. So, yeah. Unfortunately, you are coming across as kind of a prick (although I don’t like using references to male genitals as slurs).

            I also actually think I’m pretty good at building a solid argument. My comment about alcohol was tangential to my main point. Even if we accept that drunken assailants are always just as fast and dangerous as sober assailants, my main point that it is unrealistic to expect someone to shoot-to-wound and stop to check each shot in fast-paced life-or-death confrontations still stands. I have been very clear that my argument is not based on the thread-bare details of two cherry-picked examples given by the picture, but on general knowledge about firearm usage. As far as I know, law enforcement overwhelmingly (if not universally) teach police to shoot for the center of mass in life-or-death situations, because shooting-to-wound isn’t feasible.

            Some links from the Force Science Institute (research group that studies police violence) if you don’t want to take my word for it:

            I simply suggested that a possible reason the German officer shot the assailant in the leg was because a drunk assailant might have been moving slowly which made him less threatening and an easier target. I think this is still a possibility, but I don’t know for sure because the picture barely offers any details about the incident. As artiefischel pointed out, for all we know the German cop shot his assailant in the leg by accident.

      1. Your comment reads like an apology for excessive force. There is an epidemic of police violence in the US. they just mow people down on a regular basis.

      2. “Police are taught to aim for the center of mass”

        This i know.

        Emphasis on the word training

        Obviously this German officer had different training or chose to use different tactics based on his training.A machete is a far more lethal weapon than than a small knife.Machetes are made for loping off branches,heads and arms.And like i said before if being drunk makes a big difference,i know some bars where you are welcome to start a fight.

        Or perhaps American should go along with and before the word training.

        How often do German police kill the people they shoot?

        Out of 85 shots fired in 2011, 6 people were killed btw

        If police officers because of emotional issues

        Or psychological issues

        Or psychiatric issues

        Or vision issues

        Or anger issues

        cannot perform their duties within community standards for whatever issue then they need to find another line of work.

        German police obviously have different standards.

        Because we can see that over there for a police officer, a deranged individual with a knife, is not an excuse to empty a clip or multiple clips into someone between his chin and his navel .

        Yes i am well aware of police training called the Quell System invented by Paris Theodore.ment for use in combat to immediately stop someone by shooting into the nervous system

        Being entitled to use military tactics and equipment and hardware on civilian populations is precisely the kind of slippery slope that results in dictatorship.

        Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.
        Benjamin Franklin

        And a major reason being

        Thousands if incidents costing decent taxpayers millions of dollars because these police officers lack training and screening/vetting for issues that if they were simply exempted from police service never would have happened and never would have costed taxpayers so heavily .

        If someone has issues causing them to be unfit for police duty -find another job

        1. I really think you missed my point. I’m not saying that there isn’t police misconduct in America. I’m not saying there isn’t room/need for improvement. I’m not saying that American police are better than German police or vice-a-versa. I never even talked about police using “military tactics and equipment and hardware on civilian populations” unless you consider handguns military hardware. My point is the picture unfairly suggests American police shoot to wound in situations where doing so would be both extremely difficult and dangerous to the police officers as well as innocent bystanders. I already explained why firing multiple bullets until an attacker is down makes sense in situations where stopping to check what each shot did could get you killed.

          I think that trying to claim that American cops are doing something wrong by comparing only a few bare facts (both involved a guy with bladed weapons and cops with guns) in two different situations doesn’t make a convincing argument. I could just as easily create an unfair comparison by comparing the German cop to a US police sniper who actually did shoot a weapon out of somebody’s hand (the criminal was stationary – still not an easy shot) and claim that it is German police who are unnecessarily brutal.

          Again, I wasn’t really trying to compare German and American police. I assume that German police also train to shoot for the center of mass. In 2011, a German policewomen (after being stabbed) shot and killed her attacker at close-range by shooting her in the stomach.

          The only link you give that actually compares American and German police claims German police fire their guns less than American police, but it doesn’t take it account differences in population size, violent crime rate, amount/type of violent resistance police face in each country, police/bystander injury rate from violent encounters with criminals, violent criminals who escape police custody, etc.

          As for why the German cop’s attacker being drunk matters, I thought I was obvious. Drunk people are slower and have less coordination. Slow people are easier to shoot and it’s hard for someone to charge you if he/she can’t walk a straight line. Maybe the German cop realized this and thought it was safe enough to shot to wound. Maybe the German cop was just overconfident and lucky. Don’t know because the pic barely gives us any facts.

          1. My point is have you ever seen a drunkin bar fight?

            Im not saying that anyone should go to a bar and start a fight.

            But i know some bars,have been in some bars where you would be very surprised how quick people can move with the inhibition of alcohol and anger.

            i assure you you that you would be amazed at how fast fists,feet,pool sticks and chairs can move.Seen it myself

            You would think that they would be slower – but really not that much.

            That man in that picture had a sword and a machete. .

            And the German cop shot him in the leg.

            He didnt empty his clip betwen the mans chin and his navel as training in Quell teaches you to do.

            Its over kill.

            Its a military combat tactic.

            Useful and i would say necessary is if someone is within striking distance.

            Or if they have a firearm and are intent on using it.

            Im saying that if they used different tactics like not being so confrontational to begin with ,They would not have had to shoot him like they did.And as they have done soo many times

            That German police officer drew his hand gun after keeping a distance aimed and fired instead of just emptying a clip as happens so many times here in the USA.

            But like i said if you really believe that someone with a few drinks is THAT much slower i could show you some places that would show you different.

            Im also trying to explain that the cost to taxpayers of police officers using using unreasonable(including lethal force) force have cost us hundreds of thousands of dollars of dollars in lawsuits .

            So the police need to be using tactics and techniques that dont require attempting to intimidate people.

            Because it all to often dosent work and it causes resentment. and results in needles death and injury to innocent bystanders,to police officers and to suspects.

            So for example if a police officer does not and can not acquire the skill to shoot someone armed merely with a knife without emptying a clip in them.

            Then they need to find another line of work.

            A carpenter who cannot hit a nail on a head with a hammer on a regular basis needs to find another line of work.

            In fact ive worked for company’s where if you cannot sink a 16 penny nail with three or four swings then you are out of a job

            So everyone has standards.

            We cannot afford this.Are you made of money?Im not










            Millions and millions of tax dollars down the drain because of police tactics ,training and techniques.

            And skill

            Some people can shoot a hole thru a quarter flying thru the air with a .45

            Some people cant shoot the broad side of a barn door with a 12 gauge shogun.

            Some of these things are teachable
            Some people simple dont have the personal make up to learn.

            Some people remain cool clam and collected thru any situation .
            Some people lose their cool at the drop of a hat.

            What im talking about is personable responsibility and accountability with our public servants.

            Because if they are not held accountable,properly trained and vetted then they will become ,instead of civil servants they will become civil masters .

            But for some people thats what they want.

            i could also show you places in Latin America and elsewhere that are police states. where the only right you have are what the local police say you have.,

            Someone from Central America told me many years ago.
            “You Americanos,your country will fail because you have too much liberty”

          2. “Some people can shoot a hole through a quarter flying thru the air with a .45” How many people can suddenly make that shot at a moment’s notice, in 2 seconds, with one bullet, knowing someone will immediately stab them to death if they miss?

            I don’t think we are going to agree on this one – mainly because we disagree about how difficult/practical shooting-to-wound is versus shooting the center of mass, the feasibility of checking each shot in a fast moving life-or-death situation and possibly also the real danger of someone charging from close-range with a bladed weapon.

            I also think you are dragging a lot of stuff into this that I’m really not talking about. Again, my specific point is that expecting American police officers (or really anyone using a gun in a fast paced life-or-death situation) to shoot-to-wound is unrealistic.

            I’m not saying that shooting to wound is impossible or never a viable option. I can even agree that the police sometimes have an obligation to put themselves at slightly greater personal risk to try non-lethal solutions. This is what the police in the sniper video did after they had secured the area. However, when a police officer or innocent bystander is in imminent danger of violent death (such as someone charging with a knife at short-range), I think he/she should be allowed to use whatever means allows the police officer/innocent bystander the highest chance of survival.

            Also, unless the specifically have non-lethal rounds, guns are not non-lethal weapons. Frankly, the police sniper could have accidentally blown off the criminals hand (or at least left a hell of a hole) or a freak wind would have sent the bullet into the criminals chest. Tell cops to start aiming for the legs and arms of moving targets and you’ll still have plenty of accidental gut and chest shoots, plus more dead cops and more stray bullets. In fact, cops may start using even more bullets in a desperate attempt to hit the smaller targets of the legs and arms. Start teaching cops that guns are non-lethal and you may actually see a rise in their unnecessary use, much like what we sometimes see with the overuse of Tasers.

          3. Yea we are going to just disagree.

            And the incident on NY and this on as well didnt just happen in two seconds.

            So you are making strawman arguments.

            And we are just going to just disagree

          4. I’m fine with agreeing to disagree. It’s just internet comments, not a congressional debate. However, I wish you didn’t accuse me of making strawman arguments. Seems like a gentlemanly poke in the eye before you walk out the door.

            I never claimed the incident in New York “happened” in two seconds. I don’t really know how the incidents happened, because (as I pointed out) the pic barely offers any details. I used 2 seconds because I was talking about attacks with edged weapons in general and 2 seconds is around the generally established time it takes for a assailant with an edge weapon to close the distance on an armed cop from short range:

            The “fastest, most skillful, most powerful” subject FSRC tested “easily” covered that distance in 1.27 seconds. Intense rage, high agitation and/or the influence of stimulants may even shorten that time[…]Even the slowest subject “lumbered” through this distance in just 2.5 seconds. Bottom line: Within a 21-foot perimeter, most officers dealing with most edged-weapon suspects are at a decided – perhaps fatal – disadvantage if the suspect launches a sudden charge intent on harming them.

            The picture uses “cherry-picking” (aka the fallacy of incomplete evidence) since it asserts all American police are doing something wrong based on only a few very selective isolated facts from two examples, instead of using data that comprehensively examines American and German police as a whole. As I demonstrated with the US police sniper, you could just as easily swap out one example and fallaciously claim all German police are the brutal ones. Although very concerning, even if the two American cops are simply murderous rogues, it is ultimately irrelevant to my point. My argument that expecting police to always shoot-to-wound and stop to check each bullet in high-speed life-or-death situations is unrealistic and dangerous is based on general information about armed conflict and firearm use, not the skeletal details of what two American cops did in New York.

          5. No what i sad was that the incident in NY and the one we are talking about did not happen in two seconds.

            The were situations that built up over a period of time lasting at least several minutes as most do.

            My point one again and for the last time about a fight in a bar is that ,regardless of what you might think about alcohol they do not happen in any kind of slow motion.

            Interesting how you keep bringing that up.

            Out of how many times German police officers fire their handguns did death result?

            Thats a point im making .

            Whats the ratio?

            “armed conflict”

            Depends on what type of conflict.

            A man with a machete and a sword was simply shot in the leg.

            That took skill.

            As with all skills some can learn and some cant.

            Its called marksmanship



            Thats a copout

            The mentality of too many of the police is to escalate instead of neutralize SITUATIONS, often requiring them to eventually use deadly force to neutraize PEOPLE, most often men.

            Now im done talking.Say what done

          6. No, what you wrote was: “And the incident on NY and this on as well didn’t just happen in two seconds. So you are making strawman arguments.” As I pointed out in my earlier post, you accused me of claiming something I didn’t claim in order to accuse me of making a logical fallacy, which I didn’t actually make.

            If anything, you are drifting toward strawman fallacy, by seemly trying to make the argument about police brutality. I’ve made it very clear that my point isn’t really about police brutality, its about realistic firearm usage. For the sake of argument, American police could all be murderous devils, but that still doesn’t directly affect whether or not shoot-to-wound and checking each shot is a realistic shooting style (for anyone) in a fast-paced life-or-death situation.

            Good report about the problems with shoot-to-wound by the Force Science Institute:

            Some people think an individual armed with a knife is not a dangerous threat to an officer,” Lewinski says. From our research and the research of others, we know that not to be true. Knives can actually be more dangerous than a gun…. Force Science studies show that “a young person in reasonably good shape can cover as much as 31 feet in the time it takes an officer to draw his gun, point, and fire 1 round. If a person is 7 feet away, the officer could even have his gun in the low-ready position, and by the time he raises the gun and fires even once, he could be stabbed. A stab from a knife or a stab and upward cut can be extremely quick. Each cut or slash can occur at less than one-quarter second, and any one could be lethal for the officer….

            Why not shoot the gun or knife out of their hand? Why not shoot to wound the subject? Lewinski recalls TV and movie westerns in which the hero defeats an attacker with this kind of precision shooting. “It’s one of those Hollywood myths,” he says. “It looks good on film but doesn’t work in the real world. Officers do not have the ability to fire and hit that accurately in a dynamic encounter.” Even if officers aim for center mass, they “tend not to be as accurate as they might be on the range because the dynamics by which people move in a real-world encounter are such that center mass is a constantly changing target….” To stop the threat, the goal of police deadly force, “the best place an officer can aim for is center mass,” Lewinski explains. “Even then it’s not a guarantee,” but it’s more realistic than the extraordinary challenge of intentionally hitting only an arm or a leg.

            It’s actually strange how you keep bringing up alcohol and bar fights. I didn’t mention either in the post you are replying to. In fact, I even clarified that my point is based on general knowledge of firearm use, not the picture’s very few details of two cherry-picked examples. My point about firearm usage stands regardless of how evil the two American cops were or how drunk the German assailant was.

            We don’t agree on realistic firearm usage. Fine. However, I will say that prepared and practiced trick shots on inanimate targets are not directly comparable to someone having to suddenly shoot another human being to protect him or herself from imminent death.

            This isn’t directly related by to my point, but (as I previously pointed out) just saying that German cops shoot less people doesn’t explain why they shoot less people. There are lot of factors to consider. I’m completely open to the idea that German cops might police better than American cops, but the only thing you linked to comparing the two is an article claiming German cops didn’t use their guns a lot in 2011. The same article doesn’t even say how often American cops used their guns, but gives the total (not just those caused by firearms) number of deaths caused by American police from 2003-2009. These are not comparable statistics. Aside from that, the article just cherry-picks outliner examples of America cops using a lot of bullets.

            You haven’t actually given any info showing how German cops are actually trained and how it differs from American cops. One German cop shoots one assailant in the leg and you seem to assume German cops practice shoot-to-wound as a rule. Is it really an actual policy of the German police force to shoot to wound?? If so, does this really lead to better outcomes in general? If you want to claim that German police cause fewer gun fatalities (even when accounting for all other factors) by simply using their guns less – fine. Just realize this is unrelated to my point. Again, my argument was about realistic firearm usage, not police brutality. I’m not talking about how often cops use their guns, but what someone can realistically do with a gun in a fast-paced life-or-death situation.

            If you still really want to prove your point find me a law enforcement agency that is documented as teaching shoot-to-wound/checking each shot (even in situations where officers face imminent death) and having a policy of shooting to wound instead of shooting for the center of mass (not the actions of one cop, but a department wide policy). Then compare the differences in outcomes with a police department that has a traditional shooting style. Then account for other possible factors (differences in crime rate, population size, criminal behavior, etc).

          7. What thru discussing this.Its a waste of time.There are many people who have learned to draw and shoot in a small fraction of a second.

            “what someone can realistically do with a gun in a fast-paced life-or-death situation ”







            Here is one for you


            Or just buy a laser pointer ,tie it to a stick ,figure out how fast it takes you to aim and point it at something,and practice a little bit.

            This Quell shooting system that people are so proud of today is only a few decades old.


            We WILL continue to disagree how much shooting to kill is necessary.

            Meanwhile tax payers will continue to pay millions of tax $$$$ in wrongful

            death lawsuits.

            *patting you on the head*

            Be my guest and believe everything the government(and the police) tell you 🙂









            i regret ever having commented

          8. I wonder how many mentally ill/drunk/drug crazed criminals are running around loose in this German town, compared to New York City?

            I wonder how much the one cop is exposed to this type of criminal activity as compared to the other?

            I hardly saw any cops at all in Germany, but then, I walked around at night unthreatened and unintimidated.

            I don’t walk around at night in my city – people are routinely attacked.

            Apples and oranges.

          9. “How many people can suddenly make that shot at a moment’s notice, in 2
            seconds, with one bullet, knowing someone will immediately stab them to
            death if they miss?”
            As a young boy, I learn to shoot instinctively killing feral pigs in northern outback Australia. Brain and heart shots on piglets at full speed over 50 yards repeatedly. I’d shoot 10 + at a time with a single shot, bolt action 243.
            Why? Because I poured 1000’s of rounds through my gun til I got all Dan’l Boone with it. Those big outback stations had an inexhaustible supple of wild feral pigs and the boss was happy to have a competent shooter so he kept me in ammo.
            And my tactics where uncannily similar to the Ferguson police. I went to where my quarry was known to frequent, waded in and opened fire, shot the place up like Billy the Kid and wandered off without consequences.
            Now while it may sound like I’m bragging, I’m very aware there’s a huge number of people who can hand me my arse on a plate at a shooting competition.
            Why the accuracy of a line cop, who isn’t in outback Australia but blazing away on a suburban street, as important as it is for some random country boy out the back of beyond?
            And as far as I’m concerned the entire discussion on shooting skill is moot.

            “Im saying that if they used different tactics like not being so
            confrontational to begin with ,They would not have had to shoot him like
            they did.And as they have done soo many times” Frodo

            There’s the real issue. Discuss that. Police not being confrontational. Weird I know.

          10. Hunting a baby pig with a bolt action rifle at 50 yards versus defending yourself with an automatic pistol (which may be holstered at the time) as you are suddenly ambushed by a charging attacker armed with a knife at 21 feet or less, then (1.27-2.5 seconds away from your own violent death) shoot only to wound and check each shot. The two situations are completely incomparable.

            You claim the “entire discussion on shooting skill / shooting-to-wound is versus shooting the center of mass, is moot.”. It is not moot. It’s my entire point, which I will restate yet again – the picture suggests the police officers (or anyone for that matter) shoot-to-wound and check each of their shots in a fast-paced life-or-death confrontations. This is an unrealistic expectation of firearms use.

            Everyone seems to want to think I’m arguing about police brutality. I am not! I’m arguing about realistic firearm usage. I thought I was very clear about this. I think people are too hungry for a pro-police brutality bogeyman to beat up to actually see this.

            I completely agree brutal cops should be held accountable, that (when possible) no force or non-lethal force should be used instead of lethal force and there may be more effective and safe ways for American cops to police. Again, what I am arguing about is the realistic usage of firearms! If you want to discuss police brutality in general, realize that you not talking directly to my point, you are merely talking around it.

        1. I assure you, I don’t think any of this is a joke. Even violent criminals getting shot is often tragic. The picture is “ridiculous” (not funny, but more ludicrous) because it promotes an unrealistic view of firearm use. As I mentioned, shoot-to-wound is a incredibly difficult and unreliable shooting style. Demanding cops only shoot-to-wound or stop to check every shot when their attacker is barreling toward them will result in more officer fatalities.

          1. ” shoot-to-wound is a incredibly difficult and unreliable shooting style. ”

            No its not.

            Not for everyone.


            That takes practice and skill.

            And no im not expecting that level of skill from our police officers, but emptying a clip into someone armed only with a knife,as i have demonstrated again and again is simply unacceptable

            And if we dont train our police officers better and vett them better we will continue to pay untold millions in lawsuits.

          2. perhaps the american govt should reconsider the american right to bear arms and then perhaps there wouldn’t be so much shooting.
            Or better still improve the tasers and use them
            killing someone should be the last resort ( you can’t sentence people if they are dead ) and the death penalty has never been a deterrent.

            Jon, if the new york cops( or any american cops) don’t have the marksmanship skills to shoot to wound then they are also likely to shoot innocent bystanders. they have a job in which they will be working with weapons every day( many police forces don’t) and so perhaps they should skill up in the use of tasers.

          3. You already how and why I disagree with your thoughts are marksmanship. In America, I think the toothpaste is out of the tube when it comes to gun ownership, but I would like to see much more strict gun control laws. That being said, we’ve mostly be talking about knife crime.

            I do agree that killing someone should be a last resort and I would like to see more viable non-lethal weapons for police. Tasers are one of the best non-lethal weapons police have, but they still have a lot of disadvantages in terms of effectiveness when compared to guns (less ammo, less speed, less range, little physical stopping power, less penetration, the wire ties you to one assailant, and they still sometimes end up killing people).

            Non-lethal weapons are a great idea, but that I think sometimes officers to use them too readily (easier to just shoot someone with a Taser than talk them down). I think its important that police (when possible) only use non-lethal weapons as an alternative to lethal weapons and don’t use non-lethal weapons as an alternative to no force at all.

          4. “perhaps the american govt should reconsider the american right to bear arms and then perhaps there wouldn’t be so much shooting.”
            Sounds plausible but really just gun grabbing reasoning.
            Guns, despite the propaganda don’t make life more risky.
            I know the world view is that gun crazy America kills more people than any where else because guns!
            Not true. Murders per 100,000 is the way to see who’s killing who, not gun ownership. People kill each other with what they have to hand, same as any other job. If everyone owns a gun, then death by gun will figure prominently. No guns, it’s death by something else. F’instance, England has no guns, by comparison yet has a higher death rate per 100,000 than the US. Poms are more murderous than Yanks. Go figure.
            And there’s countries with higher gun ownership rates than the states with a lower death rate. So gun = murder is bullshit.
            Your right to bear arms, and the fact you’re bearing so fucking many of them gives you security in my mind.
            It’s cars that are the problem, those things are killing people all the time.

          5. “And there’s countries with higher gun ownership rates than the states with a lower death rate. So gun = murder is bullshit.”

            Fraid not .. as i said it the insistence of right to bear arms( which belongs in the days of militia) not gun ownership that is the issue.

            You said yourself other coutnries which have a higher level of gun ownership density yet have a lower gun crime rate. Because they don’t have a right to bear arms attitude and ownership is heavily regulated.

            according to the link your provided the australians have a much lowere rate that the US and england(UK) is not even onthe chart, so I don’t know where you get your evidence .

            BTW – guns don’t kill people apes with guns kill people ( immortal words of RW)

            and cars..

            yeah I can see that
            and guns and cigarettes come second after cars

          6. So you want to ban the attitude, not the guns?
            The point I’m trying to make is people will go at each other with what ever is at hand.
            The England reference came from another chart and site that I can’t find again so easily so trust me or not as you wish.
            I’m sure a bit of research will turn up another country with as much or more violence and death and less guns.
            America has a reputation internationally, as having a gun and murder problem
            which this chart shows is false, relatively speaking, once you look at
            some other countries. Sure one death is one too many, but the US has a
            long way to go to truly earn a rep as the most dangerous place for guns
            or murder and violence. Not even in the top half.
            You could melt every single firearm in the States and the violent crime and injury rates will not fall. Or the world for that matter. Just the number of gunshot wounds, fatal or otherwise.
            Since there are so many other things killing and injuring people around the
            world, I judge the notion of getting rid of guns to make the place safer
            as tunnel vision and irrational. Given that people will kill other
            people any way they can, getting rid of just clubs, or just knives is
            not logical.
            A wet bath tub is dangerous yet we have no issue with putting our kids in there for hours every day.
            Added to that, every example of genocide or just tyranny is accompanied by
            disarmament. Tyrants just hate it when somebody starts shooting back.
            Given developments of recent years, I’d be buying not selling cos I’m
            pretty sure with all that military equipment your cops have been getting, a
            lot of people expect to see tyranny get worse before it gets better in
            the land of the free.
            BTW – apes have been killing apes since apes have been around.
            Looooong before firearms were invented. Killing started with rocks and sticks.
            Neither of which we’re about to run out of any time soon.
            I understand that people who have little to no personal experience with
            live ammo can be horrified by their lethality and getting rid of them
            seems the only sane thing to do but frankly for effectiveness, you might
            as well ban the sharpening of sticks. The murderers will either ignore
            the ban or club you to death with the blunt end.

      3. I’ll tell you what is ridiculous, the idea the only option open to police is to shoot to kill because, cops rights. A reiteration of might is right.
        Non-lethal policing of dangerous situations are used in various places around the world. Anyone in denial about this has no place in policing.
        Any cop not shooting women can fucking well stop telling me they have to shoot men.

    2. I’m not sure what this shows or doesn’t show. You would be better off linking to a German law enforcement agency’s use of force policy. How do we know the cop didn’t miss and hit the suspect in the leg?

        1. Well, it looks like he’s trying to shoot the guy in the as…phalt . Who knows where he was aiming. Also, your use of this image implies that all German police officers would do this, that the image is not atypical. Like I said, you would be better off linking to a German law enforcement agency’s use of force policy, that’s how we would know what they are supposed to do.

  6. Evil white menz. George Zimmerman conflations. Black male on white male crime routinely under reported, but hey! It’s obviously a “vast conspiracy” by white men to target innocent black men.

    Native American tribes ended up decimated and relegated to reservations because they were too busy fighting among themselves instead of fighting against their common enemy.

    That’s a fact, jack.

    Keep up the derailment tactics, guys, while your enemy circles the wagons.

    1. Heh, yeah. I can see it in some shadowy meeting. (With the interpretation of feminist as Saturday morning cartoon villain)
      “Of COURSE we target black men more! They’re the ones gullible enough to think we’re being racist rather than sexist!”

    2. The demonization of black males is a frequent feminist ploy.
      Defending the rights of black males is not equal to “evil white menz” That is an oversimplification.

      1. Can you post any example any where, any time, of any feminists demonizing black males?

        No, you can’t.

        That’s not their schtick.

        They demonize ALL males, while pitting black males against white males.

        The MHRM is a “bunch of racist old white dudes” remember? Even after seeing black men AND women speaking at the Detroit conference that was still the feminist’s claim.

        1. Can you post any example any where, any time, of any feminists demonizing black males?

          No, you can’t”

          Do you always answer your won questions? Seems rather arrogant to me.

          Let’s start with Alice Walker’s The Color Purple. it set the standard for demonization of black men., portraying them as abusive brutes. Walker was a pal of Gloria Steinem, who recruited Walker in the 1950’s for her CIA front group operations. -
          See also, The Mighty Wurlitzer: How the CIA Played America by Hugh Wolford for an extensive exploration of Steinem’s CIA activities, including the recruitment of Walker. walker and Steinem remained close for decades.

          Steinem also sponsored the publication of Michelle Wallace’s Black macho and the Myth of the Superwoman, an anti black male polemic. “Wallace called abolitionists like Harriet Tubman and Sojouner Truth “ugly” and “stupid” for supporting Black men. She called Black Revolutionaries “chauvinist macho pigs” and advised Black women to “go it alone.” Steinem put the book and its author on the cover of Ms. magazine in 1978.

          So next time, before you tell a man what he can and can’t do, you need to make sure you’re not speaking from ignorance.

          1. Feminists demonize ALL males. They do not specifically target black males, and in fact, have always feigned solidarity with black males while specifically targeting white males. As a black male you’ve enjoyed Affirmative Action and racial quotas just as feminists have enjoyed gender quotas.

          2. First, I am not a black male. that’s just your prejudice showing.

            Second, I provided examples, sources and links to instances of well known feminists demonizing black men specifically.

            Feminists have not “feigned solidarity with black males” That’s just your ignorant assertion of a false categorical statement that I’ve already disproved with my examples.
            You pretty much struck out here, and your ignorant bigotry is showing.

          3. That’s OK. I’m not right wing or whatever other ugly names I’m not going to bother to review you called me.

            Kinda showing your own faux social justice warrior ass, but then, that’s stock and trade for race baiters.

            You did not prove your point about feminists targeting black men specifically. Alice Walker writing The Color Purple is hardly “feminists targeting black men”.

            If anything, feminists will ALWAYS derail the false rape accusation discussion by decrying how so many more black men are falsely accused than white – like it’s white men’s fault rather than their own female criminality.

          4. I will never prove that point to you because denying the truth is essential to your racist philosophy of lumping feminism and racial equality together as illegitimate “Victim Olympics”
            But I’ll try. Alice Walker is a leading feminist author, and a decades long friend and supporter of Gloria Steinem. Walker’s The Color Purple portrayed black males as abusive brutes and rapists. QED Alice Walker’s the Color Purple is a instance of feminists targeting black men.
            You don’t even address Steinem’s boosting of Michele Wallace’s nati-black male book. 70’s feminism demonized black men in order to undermine the revolutionary black militant movement. Steinem, a CIA operative, led the charge. Maybe you’ll like her more now.

          5. ALL men are portrayed as abusive brutes and rapists, or haven’t you noticed, misogynist? (if disagreeing with you about race makes me racist, disagreeing with me makes you misogynist. Continuing to call me “racist” to win your point is pathetic, btw. It’s an over used feminist’s tactic that’s just about played out. Learn a new one. Surprise me.)

            What part of “black men are not specifically singled out in any way, shape or form” don’t you understand?

            If anything, that was an “equal opportunity” portrayal, wasn’t it? There are thousands of examples of white men portrayed just like that IF NOT FAR WORSE – you’re still crying about ONE 30+ year old movie and ONE feminist?

            Feminists hate men. ALL men. In that respect, they ARE completely all about ‘equality”.

    3. “Evil white menz.”

      nope, no such thing exist, or ever existed–no evil black menz either ever existed

      “George Zimmerman conflations.”

      not sure what that means

      “Black male on white male crime routinely under reported, but hey!”

      well they get caught, and are thrown in jail, after a trial, then what is there to report?

      black kid gets killed a demonstration must be held before bringing the killer under arrest, and initiate an investigation…yep same thing i tell ya

      “Native American tribes ended up decimated and relegated to reservations because they were too busy fighting among themselves instead of fighting against their common enemy.

      That’s a fact, jack.”

      yes sister, you said it i believe it…got that jack? or jacqueline…

  7. AVfM would be much better advised, I think, to try bringing cops on board in opposition to the feminist-inspired policing policies that require them to treat ALL men as “innocent until proven guilty” when called to any dispute between a man and a woman. This kind of judgemental accusation in the absence of complete facts and evidence seems unlikely to be helpful in persuading cops that they shouldn’t use essentially the same kind of feminized “logic” in their own enforcement policies.

  8. This is another Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman situation except a lot more clear. I don’t agree with the message of this article as I feel it buys into the race baiting narrative of black vs white. I don’t think racism played any part in what occurred other than perhaps on the part of the mainstream media.

      1. Well then. The kkk held a fund raiser for someone. Without his endorsement or attendance or support, by all appearances.

        Better hang ‘im.

          1. I can always find my pitch fork…..and I can always find my torch….but I can NEVER find my pitch fork AND my torch.

            I miss all the best silly mobs.

          2. You have to store them together, sort of a little “I’m going to embarrass myself” kit that you keep near the door. My question for the mob attendees outside the US (we don’t seem to go in for this sort of thing) is: who has time in their busy day, not to mention material, to whip up an effigy of a famous person only to burn it? I wouldn’t know where to begin to build one. Are there tricks to keep it hanging together while it’s burning? Or do you just order it from ?

          3. I would assume that one must dress said effigy in a natural fiber based ensemble so as to smolder rather than melt, helping to hold the thing together a bit.

            Eh. Who has the time but a few overachieving malcontents.

  9. I am starting to wonder if AVFM is turning more towards promoting a particular political ideology rather than actually being about giving a voice for men. There are two men involved in this matter… the victim, and the other victim… the guy go got assaulted and the guy who got killed for assaulting. If this was about male disposability I could perhaps see the purpose of this letter. However this letter is blatantly promoting the ideology of black = victim… basically taking away the agency of the black man… which is EXACTLY the same technique used by feminist ideologues. This letter is political co-opting of a tragedy that has little to do with the MHRM I believe in and support. I am not going to support one man at the price of another man. No, this is wrong, and I will not support it.

    1. In fairness, AVfM didn’t write the letter, one of the contributors probably just decided to put it here in continuation of some of the other Ferguson coverage.

      But I see what you mean, and occasionally, especially when it comes to articles like this one, I see where you are coming from (I note that the vast majority of AVfM does stay true to actual MHRA discussion and so on). This letter while projecting some of the values in which I believe, like equality and justice and so on; it is not a good example of the MHRM in which I also believe.

    2. Yes. No. I think this tragedy has a lot to do with the MHRM, though not in the way the letter portrays it. As you say, there are two men involved in this matter, and depending on which side or the argument you agree with, the other man becomes instantly disposable in our mad rush to ‘justice’. Why are police procedures so dependent on a show of force that very often put the suspect’s health at risk ? Is there another way to do that the protects the officers and protects the (most often male) suspect better? Aren’t these procedures based on the assumption of disposability? In what cost/benefit analysis are a $48 box of cigars worth throwing away your future and strong-arming a shop clerk? Why is violence toward men such an easy place to get to? I think this tragedy is rife with MHRM issues.

      1. “Is there another way to do that the protects the officers and protects the (most often male) suspect better? ”

        No doubt.!!!!!!!

        40+ years ago we put a man on the moon.
        So finding better ways,tools, and techniques are nothing in comparison

    3. “this letter is blatantly promoting the ideology of black = victim… basically taking away the agency of the black man… which is EXACTLY the same technique used by feminist ideologues.”
      Nonsense. It doesn’t require a particular ideology to see that blacks are a huge part of the tens of millions living in poverty the USA. Nor to recognize the mass incarceration of blacks in the US as racist oppression of black males.
      far from “taking away the agency of the black man”, this letter is supporting the black male struggle against a racist, classist and increasingly totalitarian society. Feminism has a history of shameful demonization of black men. The MHRM needs to stay off that bandwagon.

      1. Feminism also has a shameful history of pitting black men against white, “Let’s you and him fight”, while co-opting the Civil Rights movement as their own and flinging the accusation of “racism” toward white men, even as they make their false rape accusations against black men. It’s OK, because black men will blame white men for feminist’s shitty behavior.

        How many times has the MHRM been described by feminists as a “bunch of racist white guys – even though ALL men are subject to gender injustice? Have you ever heard a black man say MEN need to unite against feminism? No, because they’re on board with feminism’s victim narrative and oppression olympics.

        ALL men, white or black, are subject to destructive feminist dictates. It isn’t one bit more tragic for a white woman to falsely accuse a black man of rape than it is for her to falsely accuse a white man. No man, white or black, has any rights to his children, to having any “choice”. Those high incarceration rates and injustice affect ALL men, not just black men.

        But keep up the in-fighting, guys. Keep up the devisive blaming each other for the lack of rights NONE of you have, the injustice ALL of you are subject to.

        1. “Have you ever heard a black man say MEN need to unite against feminism? No, because they’re on board with feminism’s victim narrative and oppression Olympics.”

          This is racist drivel, an irrational over-generalization based in prejudice.

          Here’s a link to an article by an anti-feminist black man:

          Black men are one of the most oppressed and reviled demographic in the USA, and feminists have been partners in the demonization.

          1. Well, there you have it. Case closed. You win the Oppression Olympics.

            Women are the second most oppressed demographic in the USA, verifiable by thousands of blogs, so hey! Let’s join forces and over throw the privileged white men oppressing us!

            Gee, joe. This is just like old times!

          2. Except women aren’t incarcerated at wildly disproportionate rates.

            You just repeat stupid slogans like ” You win the Oppression Olympics.”
            That’s just ignorant know-nothing rhetoric.

          3. I’ll research your claim on that one. Kind of doesn’t fit in your “blacks singled out for victimhood” narrative if that’s true.

            Combats deaths are intentionally disproportionate, but I don’t hear too much complainin’ about that.

            Google “minority majority”.

          4. Whoops! Even this ignorant know nothing knows how to verify your false statements. Look who’s denying the victimhood of black women to justify his misogyny? Shame! Shame! Shame!

            6. As the number of women incarcerated has increased by 800 percent over the last three decades, women of color have been disproportionately represented. While the number of women incarcerated is relatively low, the racial and ethnic disparities are startling. African American women are three times more likely than white women to be incarcerated, while Hispanic women are 69 percent more likely than white women to be incarcerated.

    4. “I am starting to wonder if AVFM is turning more towards promoting a particular political ideology rather than actually being about giving a voice for men. ”

      can you please state exactly how many articles avfm has published that focused specifically on the black men?

      “the guy who got assaulted and the guy who got killed for assaulting”

      wait how do you know this? i mean how do you know the guy who got killed was the one who assaulted the killer? how do you know this?

      1. Um.. Boko Harem ring a bell? We wouldn’t even know about the boys fate if it wasn’t for AVFM. The media wasn’t going to talk about it. How about paternity fraud, do you care about that? We do too.
        Your obviously new too all this.They have an archives section. There are plenty of articles written by black men. Use it and enjoy! I am gonna source some stuff, grab a beer u might need it.

        Most of these links come from AVFM.
        Listen too this dude @ 66 min., and in the below show catch him@ 1 hour these are just radio shows but search AVFMs archives. There are articles for and about black men. But keep in mind your only 6% of the population. So most of the submitted pieces come white guys.

        1. “Um.. Boko Harem ring a bell? ”


          “We wouldn’t even know about the boys fate if it wasn’t for AVFM.”

          You mean, Americans would not know about it right? I lived in Africa, and most of my friends are Nigerians, so come again?

          “There are plenty of articles written by black men.”

          Where did I say there were not any? Re-read my question again.

          “But keep in mind your only 6% of the population.”

          Of what population? The US? The world?

          But you misunderstood my comment.

          Please try to understand the context of my response. It might help to read the previous statements before my response to them. The person above was implying that AVFM focus primarily on issues of black men, hence my questions. Of course there are articles about black, and other subcultures here, my intention was not to disprove that.

          1. You still not understanding what I was trying to explain. I have no issue with articles presented by AVFM. I’ve been lurking/reading for the past 5 years. Been following Paul since his early days on youtube. Please look at the original comment I responded to, and understand the context..

          2. You still not understanding what I was trying to explain. I have no issue with articles presented by AVFM. I’ve been lurking/reading for the past 5 years. Been following Paul since his early days on youtube. Please look at the original comment I responded to, and understand the context..

  10. In response to not just the Ferguson situation, but numerous situations across the world, I’d like to make a point about resistance as a driving factor of social reform. Resistance is not an army, nor a crowd, nor a protest, nor anything like that. Resistance is an idea. We could say that its the concept of freedom and equality and justice and everything which these things entail, and this is the banner that most of us here are moving under. However, resistance is equally the hatred and anger which is born of oppression and suffering and so on, and that is where things get dangerous.

    The real monsters? They’re not feminism, or sexism, or capitalism, or anything like that. The real monsters are the products of the pain and anger that these ideologies create. Those monsters have been made, and whether we like it or not, some of them are going to wake up if they haven’t done so already.

    Anyway… in response to the article itself, I think that posting the letter here might be a little… how to say… jumping the gun. Personally, I would have held off until we have a slightly more complete picture of what really happened.

  11. One of the lessons I would like learned by MHRA’s (besides the obvious) is the example of the marching and protesting. How can we gain something, as men (and the women who love us and whom we love) fighting for justice, if we assume a strategy of open, public, PEACEFUL protests?

    The violence and looting part of it and similar events need to stop and has served as a distraction from the issue as well as the fact that in most all of these type cases, irrespective of color, it is men who get treated this way. No matter any half-baked stats on “why” men are more caught up in it, the truth still remains: men are being treated very poorly—something our societies would not tolerate if it were women…and again, regardless of “why”. This was one of the first things I noticed about this event and similar others.

    So, let us look at the example of marching and protesting as a way to instill the people of our movement to take on this bold method of countering wrongs in our societies. I wonder, if the violence had not occurred, would there be many more people protesting?…which would likely have more impact on authorities? What if we MHRA’s went there to take part but with our message that it is men being treated this way most every time?

    We are going to have to learn how to “fight” this way…for the internet is ours only for a brief time. We had better have some experience with alternative ways to educate and oppose the way we are treated as males.

    In a grossly biased gynocentric world that apparently most are oblivious to… United, we stand a chance; Divided, we will be erased. The process is already happening and the more power they get, given their track record and affinity for punishing males, the faster we will be isolated and eventually “erased”.

  12. What the hell’s this nonsense?

    ‘Peaceful Community Resolutions’? ‘profiling’? ‘Prejudicial Culture’?

    This was about a 300lb violent robber who chose to knock a cop about and then got pumped full of bullets for his trouble. I’d have shot him as well. I’ve have shot him whether he was black, white, or purple with polka dots.

    And black kids don’t want to be stopped by cops all the time? Well start acting like fucking civilized human beings then and stop committing so many crimes and acting so anti-socially all the fucking time.

    And everyone can shut the fuck up about ‘American culture’ and all that bullshit. We had exactly the same here in England in 2011 when the shooting of criminal Mark Duggan triggered riots across half the country. At least in Ferguson it’s just Ferguson that’s rioting – here half the country was rioting.

    Fact is, every country’s got it’s fair share of value-less assholes and Brown was just another bullying thief who got what was coming.

    1. I have to disagree. Not with the sequence of events you’re claiming, but with the context you put it in. I’m still wondering why a kid who was supposed to leave for college, whose family thinks of him as a gentle person, would screw himself completely in the space of under 15 minutes. Sure families often have stars in their eyes when they describe their kids, but no other evidence conflicts with their description except the events of that day. Just some random thoughts:
      Was he ‘too gentle’? Was this some anger that he was holding onto that got triggered by his upcoming move? Angry urban black kids don’t tend to shoot up their high schools like angry suburban white kids do. Is this their version of that phenomena, some variation of suicide by cop?

        1. He’s saying single mothers aren’t doing such a bang up job raising their sons – or daughters, for that matter.

        2. Now that the federal govt will only give mothers federal funding if their are no fathers around…we are seeing the complete destruction of families.

          1. That’s part of the problem. The other part is the women accepting the federal money, and the guys that get those women pregnant in the first place…the destruction happened 30 years ago

          2. Until men have birth control, “choice” as far as paternity goes, or the right to equitable child custody, I HOLD MEN ENTIRELY BLAMELESS, SINCE THEY HAVE NO “CHOICE”.

            Unless you want to go back to the days of making sex between unmarried adults illegal – then BOTH should be prosecuted.

            The person with “choice” has the responsibility – if BOTH choose, BOTH must be held accountable.

            Men don’t “get” women pregnant by themselves.

    2. Michael Brown was shot six times. Twice to the head. What nonsense are you talking?

      “And black kids don’t want to be stopped by cops all the time? Well start acting like fucking civilized human beings then and stop committing so many crimes and acting so anti-socially all the fucking time”
      This is hate speech and racism, and your just another racist piggy spewing hate against black people.

    3. But what about Brown’s poor mother who invested all those taxpayer dollars, hours in front of the television, etc. to raise him into a man? Blame the (male) cop. She’s a special snowflake deserving of “respect”.

  13. First, calling our contributors “idiots” is a violation of policy but I’m letting this comment stand anyway.

    Second, Did you notice the editors’ note? We publish a variety of opinions on men’s issues, because we consider them worthy of discussion, which is why we’re also publishing your comment.

    I have no idea who among us is a “half wit, bomb throwing anarchist that actually doesn’t WANT law and order;” If you know, do tell. The Ferguson incident IS a men’s rights issue. Yes it is also a race issue, a law enforcement issue, and a Social Justice Warrior issue.

    It is an issue of male disposability. Who do you think gets the brunt of it when law and order do break down? When “lawful orders” given by the police are less and less “lawful,” as they have become in recent years, who do you think gets “lawfully” beaten, imprisoned and killed most often?

    That breakdown you mention of the black family and community, is spreading far outside the black community. This is not a racial issue, it is the result of decades of males being made redundant by the government.

    This incident is part of a pattern of policies that treat men as less than human, and treats their human rights as negotiable privileges. We at AVfM refuse to accept your paradigm of “left/right” on this. It’s not “left/right.” It’s human rights.

    1. I try to be as nice as I can with people – but the facts are what they are here. This is an issue of law and order and THAT’S IT.
      As a man I resent victim politics and refuse to take part in them. Women buy into them wholesale and you really, really need to get rid of that habit or stop pretending to speak for men. Men do not join gangs. They do not punch out people half their size as they shop lift cigars from some poor working slob that runs the corner store. They do not rack up multi-page rap sheets. They do not accept or rely on welfare if work is available. Those other problems you mentioned do exist, but none of them justify what has happened.
      One of the other manosphere bloggers I know says that women are socialists and fascists by nature. I tend to agree and will bet you censor this rather than deal with this issue on the up and square. As it is, I see this article and your defense of it as intellectually dishonest.
      If this is going to be a liberal circle jerk – you are welcome to it. Just bear in mind that you speak for liberals, liars, thieves, thugs and other turd brains – not men.

      1. “This is an issue of law and order and THAT’S IT.”

        Thank the stars for the crazy idealists in the world that are smart enough to totally disregard anyone making such an arrogant declaration.

        Why am I not at all surprised that this particularly stupid remark was followed up by declarations about what what men do and don’t do (I suppose if they want to be real men)?

        This is a place of diverse ideas, and sometimes spirited debate and disagreement.

        If you are too much of an emotional and intellectual lightweight to handle it, then by all means get the fuck out.

    2. “First, calling our contributors “idiots” is a violation of policy but I’m letting this comment stand anyway.”

      I do apologize for my form, but since this IS the internet, I believe the following is appropriate….

      YOU. W0T. M8?

      Okay, seriously? It’s okay to sling shit at Your political opponents, but calling Your contributors idiots when they fuck up is “a violation of policy”. Slowclap. Bravo. A-fucking-mazed.

      And fucked up they did. You wanna talk about men’s human rights, be my guest. De-militarization of police? I’m all for it. Male disposibility? Sure, although I would prefer we extend it to the male police officers as well – no, wait, what was I thinking, they signed up for the job, after all, so they need to sacrifice themselves for the lives of criminals. Fair enough, I shall remind You of that one the next time You say something about workplace fatalities, do rest assured there.

      But spare me the feminist crap – the appeal to emotion, the painting and pandering. “Brown was well loved by his family and friends” – yeah, so was Hitler, what of it? What does that have to do with anything?

      “70% of street violence is experienced by males.” – yes, and also perpetrated by males! It’s one thing to use that argument to argue against feminists telling women to be more afraid of assault than men, and another to argue for… what, exactly? Gender parity in street violence? You want a fucking quota?

      “Facts clearly indicate that most victims of police brutality and custodial deaths in the US are men.” – Yeah, and facts also clearly indicate that most cops killed in action were killed by men. Some context, maybe? Or is it too inconvenient?

      “One answer to the question of why this is the case is that men and
      adolescent boys are treated as potential threats and therefore as likely
      criminals rather than as allies in the community” – yeah, I wonder if the FACT that most perpetrators of VIOLENT CRIME ARE MALE could have anything to do with it? I’m not saying all men are violent. I’m not saying no women are violent. I AM saying most violent criminals are male. I’m saying most successful assaults on police officers have been made by men. I wonder why the police force, expecting to deal with criminals, are more wary of male suspects? Hmmmmm? Or are “sexual dimorphism” and “men and women are different and behave differently” only valid arguments when they suit the agenda?

      And again, I’m not a fan of the double standard when it comes to treatment of men and women respectively by both the police and the legal system. No fucking way. But You know what I’m also not fond of? “Innocent until proven guilty” being applied only to the side we’re sympathetic of. “Mike Brown was unarmed and shot 6 times!” – yeah, and he was also a mountain of meat and allegedly assaulting the officer, possibly with intent to kill. Grey areas? Wait for a trial? Or are we fans of the equivalent of the Duluth model applied to the police? The cop was armed, so he was the primary aggressor? He was also white and privileged, and the kid was black and poor…. fuck this shit. Preferably with a chainsaw.

      1. Okay, seriously? It’s okay to sling shit at Your political opponents,
        but calling Your contributors idiots when they fuck up is “a violation
        of policy”. Slowclap. Bravo. A-fucking-mazed.

        Once you dumb things down, any two scenarios can be equated.
        Yes.. Its official policy.
        We didnt start with “slinging shit at political opponents”. We started off debating with feminists. It didnt work. So we are where are today.
        When arguing the points made by the authors here, who will also engage in the comments, it is preferred they be engaged with politely.
        You can stay “fucking amazed”, but this is policy.

  14. Then I see in the preamble that most signers are from outside of the USA. This is our country, not yours. Fuck off and die with your opinions on our internal matters. I expect the same response from you if I ever try to meddle with the internal affairs of your country.

    Really? The United States doesnt have opinions on the internal matters of other countries? esp 3rd world countries? particularly demonizing them in MSM, and the stereotypes have already spread to the populace.
    And the US hasnt pushed feminism on the rest of the world via the UN? I-VAWA? And yet outsiders shouldnt have an opinion on what the US does?
    The issue is specifically about abuse of power, which can be done by any race of people that is in possession of such power. The authors seem to make it clear, at least via this.

    We do not wish to convey the idea that being White necessarily makes one guilty of racism. Instead we wish to point to the truth of this particular matter as an effort to warn against future tragedies of this sort.

    1. Did feminism actually originate in the US, and is only-or mostly- promoted by US?

      I haven’t really researched this enough to concretely say, but it seems to me, the US is more a follower than a leader in the Feminism movement. The White Feather Campaign was more “them” than US. I saw WWII anti feminist posters displayed in Germany, and grew up with the “manly” Russian women doing all the “men’s work” while supporting their Vodka swilling husbands perception.

      1. It is mostly promoted by the US today.
        But you are right, it is disputable whether it originates from the US or not and historically, it was not always the US being the main promoter.

    2. I respectfully point out that not only is the U.S. misguided, wrong, and destructive to engage in cultural imperialism; likewise, the rest of the first world doesn’t have a grasp of the realities of living in the U.S…until they immigrate here and raise their first generation of addled brats. Only then do some of them “get it”.

  15. Posting this letter was a big misstep in my opinion. The more evidence that comes out about the Brown shooting, the more it appears that Brown attacked the officer, tried to take his gun, then charged in for another attack. He was not shot in the back as some initially alleged – the family’s own private examiner even found that.

    Also, putting Trayvon Martin together with Gardner and Thomas is absurd. George Zimmerman acted in self defense, and was exonerated by a jury. Gardner died from police use of excessive force, and Kelly Thomas was cruelly beaten to death by cops. There is simply no legitimate analogy to be made or comparison to be drawn.

  16. Don’t quite agree.

    Men do in fact, commit more crimes. I believe this is a part of male nature. Not the wickedness itself, but simply the tendency to go out and actually do stuff of any sort instead of sitting around debating hurt feelings or some such thing. Combine actiontaking with motive and crime is manifested.

    The racial narrative here is also quite strange. Michael Brown robbed a store and struggled with the cop. That doesn’t mean he deserved to die without trial, but given the circumstances one could see how such an incident may occur, whether by accident, misunderstanding, or overzealous cop. I’ve yet to see any evidence that the policeman shot him because he was black. Like the case with Trayvon Martin, the race angle a guilty-unless-proven-innocent fabrication that the media just assumes because it pulls at heartstrings and confirms a preconception.

    1. Given that women tend to get lighter sentences than men, the claim that men commit more crimes is one that you can’t really make.
      A crime committed by a man, might see a woman given community service and no conviction, or even not charged at all.
      Blaming ‘male nature’ is even worse, because you are attempting to say that men have some sort of defect which causes them to commit crime. Trying to claim a predisposition to action causes men to commit crimes is a very weak argument.
      This reads like feminist patriarchy theory, to be honest.

    2. Brown was shot six times. twice to the head.
      This is a pretty good indication of excessive police violence leading to homiocide, ie murder.

  17. Untill there is knowledge, there is nothing. It would be best for those of us with an interest in this event to hold our opinions. I am not American, I empathise with how complex this issue is. It seems to reoccur in different guises through out the world.

    It may seem a good thing to define the environment within which we walk as individual as ‘the struggle continues.’ But what that implies is a net result at some stage. It sounds like a reflection of the sisterhood.

    There are decisions made by individuals which have outcomes. Those outcomes may be fateful, or may benefit the individual or the whole. Let’s avoid victim attribution or claiming victimhood. Strategy requires education and self awareness.

  18. AVFM should be getting behind this. And a long time ago. Men are Men, no matter their skin colour. We are all in the same boat. These guys should have had fucking TRIAL! That’s what juries are for! These cops need to stand down!

    1. Its a shame that we are letting the media “Spin: the story into a black versus white thing…when the real issue that alarmed Americans are the “Overbloating” and subsequent militarization of American law enforcement….

      I challenge all MRA’s to not let main stream media Take this initiative away from us!!! Keep the heat on the “Overbloating” and militarization of American law enforcement!!!

      1. Both issues are valid. blacks suffer disproportionately at the hands of the US “justice” system. So do the poor.

        1. How do you know that’s true? “blacks suffer disproportionately at the hands of the US “justice”

          You DON’T know that. That might be YOUR perception, or the perception the Media currently promotes, but NONE of us know what’s truth and what’s fiction anymore.

          ALL men are victims of injustice, disproportionately, at the hands of the US “justice”.

          ALL MEN – not just YOU. ALL men’s injustice matters – not just yours.

          The sooner you seek JUSTICE FOR ALL, the sooner it will happen.

          1. You know, joe – if my own innocent son hadn’t been wrongfully incarcerated because of a false rape accusation, I’d probably more sympathetic to your plight.

            Being the “right wing nut” I am, instead of enjoying my son’s white privilege of knowing it doesn’t happen to white men as much so therefore his injustice doesn’t count, I have tried for years to reach out to ALL men falsely accused to unite in a common cause of justice – only it goes nowhere.

            Can you imagine the powerful impact it would make if the Duke LaCrosse players and Brian Banks stood together as MEN to demand justice for men falsely accused?

            It will never happen – Brian Banks is “honored” by his association with Jesse Jackson, who DEFENDED the woman that falsely accused the Duke LaCrosse players even knowing she lied.

          2. I don’t see how your son’s plight justifies your racism.

            Who said “it doesn’t happen to white men.’ Not me.

      2. This should not be a black/white thing! This is a government/men problem. I wish we had more prominent members of the black community over here. This is a MHRM issue!

          1. From some of the comments that you’ve read on here, do you think most black (mras?) men would congregate here?

            I believe the fear is they might experience the same thing as the black feminists…may be.

          2. What “fear” might that be?

            The “fear” that focusing on Equal HUMAN rights might take away from their “cause”?

          3. “The “fear” that focusing on Equal HUMAN rights might take away from their “cause”?”

            Oh my, it is hard to converse on this topic.

            This reminds me when I was at university, and a buddy who happens to be white invited me to this party. Loud music, and all the crazy things you could possibly think of. Cops showed up, and was checking in, and all the white kids were cursing them, and telling to go, and using profanity. The cops simply shrugged off, and left.

            The next day, my buddy came to our party which was predominantly black, and ironically the same cops showed, and shut down the party. Reason? “It was too loud”. My buddy was beyond amazed, and couldn’t believe what was happening. The following the black clubs held a meeting on campus, and invited the cops to have an open dialogue to understand their actions. They sent one black cop who had nothing to do with the incident.

            Equal human rights huh? in what lifetime?

          4. I know somehow this won’t penetrate any grey matter, but I’m going to mention it anyway.

            28 White or light Hispanic young men were specifically targeted for openly racial beatings and robbery by black gangs in downtown Denver.

            The police said NOTHING while the attacks went on for MONTHS. Two mothers with sons hospitalized from the beatings happened to start chatting and soon it came out that the beating were INTENTIONALLY being hidden from the public by the Denver Police Department.

            Over 38 men were finally arrested after the cover up became “news”. Many of the attacks had been filmed and posted on Youtube. Some have been rearrested in the same type attacks later, since they only got probation.

            If this had been 28 women randomly violently attacked at night in Denver, do you think they wouldn’t have been warned? If this had been a large gang of whites attacking blacks would it have been hushed up?

            Equal human rights huh? in what lifetime?

            Now that we’ve enjoyed our victim Olympics, can we move on or shall we segue into a monologue on how it doesn’t count ‘cuz blacks were treated badly before these victims were even born?

          5. “28 White or light Hispanic”

            one can be substituted for the other…got it

            “28 White or light Hispanic young men were specifically targeted for openly racial beatings and robbery by black gangs in downtown Denver.”

            please tell me you are reffering to “knockout gamge”? black gangs? you meant a couple knuckle headed idiots right?

            “The police said NOTHING while the attacks went on for MONTHS. Two mothers with sons hospitalized from the beatings happened to start chatting and soon it came out that the beating were INTENTIONALLY being hidden from the public by the Denver Police Department.”

            you meant the news papers did not report it? ohh, you know when police are trying to bust a drug ring? you know what they do? stay quiet…

            “Over 38 men were finally arrested after the cover up became “news”.”

            so they were arrested? good. or may be they were already working on arresting those dummies?

            “Many of the attacks had been filmed and posted on Youtube. Some have been rearrested in the same type attacks later, since they only got probation.”

            yep, i’ve seen them. and so you are saying none of them was on a black person?

            “If this had been 28 women randomly violently attacked at night in Denver, do you think they wouldn’t have been warned?”

            i have no idea.

            “If this had been a large gang of whites attacking blacks would it have been hushed up?”

            i have no idea. Though historically speaking it was legal for whites to hang blacks in the US…well may be they learned from the best ehh?

            “Now that we’ve enjoyed our victim Olympics, can we move on or shall we segue into a monologue on how it doesn’t count ‘cuz blacks were treated badly before these victims were even born?”

            yes sista, march march on…i’m right behind you…what steps should i take? i’m waiting on your orders. attention…left, left, lef right left


            Nice revision of the facts, there, bud.

            If 28 white women were singled out for brutal attacks downtown over the course of several months, do you think the DPD would have kept it quiet to “investigate”?

            A news reporter blew the whistle on it after those mothers started an inquiry.

            Out of respect for the victims and people who no longer trust the police to inform them of such dangers, I’d let THEM tell the story in their own words – not yours.

          7. ohh here i thought my name was jack, now its bud? right on right on

            which revisions of fact?

            so you know for sure that the 28 people that were attacked were all white males? none women, and none black, right?

            it was interesting the article because they kept using the word “gangs” as if that in itself means something. if anyone has dealt with gangs before you’d know they like to have a reputation, and having a name is important.

            not only that, these are bunch of idiotic teenagers, but young men, and women was the preferred choice.

            not my own words, the cops words, read your own article

          8. its unfounded, Howard. Black men are well received over here. I wish too see more. Why would the MHRM ignore the one segment of our population that’s disenfranchised the most? Your post makes no sense.

          9. so you have not read any comments that would make one scratches their heads on this board in relation to this issue?

            the sooner you mention something specific towards black men, there is this huge division between the mras on this site. you have not noticed this at all?

        1. For sure…And it would be a complete shame to let this one go!!! American main stream media would love to just spin this as another Black/ versus white thing….Its a narrative they are familiar with, and a framework they are skilled at manipulating………

          BUT…If we push the real concern here……WHICH IS THE OVERBLOATING OF AMERICAN LAW ENFORCEMENT……than folks…we have the initiative!!!!

  19. What part of our shared culture says it’s ok to whoop-ass on someone who is looking at you or following you around? Since when do you get cut a break for fighting with cops or failing to follow lawful orders? Is it when you are non-White? How much longer do we have to put up with so much rationalizing, over-nuancing, and knee-jerk pontificating by the social justice wannabes who are really just modern day hippies thumbing their noses at The Man purely for the sake of their romanticized counterculture ideals.

    To our friends overseas: Please wait for the facts to become available before you jump to conclusions based on first reports from CNN, Reuters, BBC, etc., etc., rtc.

    1. I wonder how many whites were saying the same thing when Jim Crow was in place? Separation but equal? The town of Tulsa burning down? And I can keep listing more and more. But it does not matter. Most whites in the US do not care about most blacks in the US. Though the black men tried his best to integrate, and accept the rules that were given to them. Only to realize there were more rules that were not on the books, but were being applied to them.

      “Please wait for the facts to become available before you jump to conclusions based on first reports from CNN, Reuters, BBC, etc., etc., etc.”

      What facts are you waiting for? That he weighs 300 lbs? That he was black too? What would you do with those facts?

      1. Seriously! The first reports were that the white cop shot an innocent, unarmed black kid. Anyone who stopped listening after that missed out on a lot of facts and witness statements that paint a different picture. It’s easy to hate the cops as stand-ins for all past injustices. But that’s just getting you into trouble. Cops are the same everywhere and you can’t act a fool in front of a cop no matter what color you are.

        1. “The first reports were that the white cop shot an innocent, unarmed black kid.”

          So he was not innocent, and he was armed? Yep

          “Anyone who stopped listening after that missed out on a lot of facts and witness statements that paint a different picture.”

          Which picture was that?

          “It’s easy to hate the cops as stand-ins for all past injustices.”

          Past injustices? You meant continuous right?

          “Cops are the same everywhere and you can’t act a fool in front of a cop no matter what color you are.”

          The same in the US? Sure. The same in the world? Hardly.

          1. What picture was that? I’m getting a big clue from the convenience store video that shows our innocent teen committing strong arm robbery. By itself that is enough for me. Using violence to commit a crime demonstrates disregard not only of the most basic community standards (any color), and disregard for other people. Posing as a victim of past or present discrimination does not justify that kind of conduct. I have seen coverage of injuries sustained by the officer in an altercation with Brown. You don’t pick a fight with cops, anywhere. This was a beat cop who was not oppressing the common folk via military hardware and tactics. The militarization of the cops is a response to evolution in the sophistication and armament of the crooks. Now I see news that Brown’s juvenile records are sought regarding connection with a second degree murder. So far that is still in the realm of a rumor in my book. But it seems more plausible in light of the other information.

            What picture indeed.

      2. Dude that’s not true! Those rules your referring too, are class rules. How’s it feel to watch your sisters go on to get graduate degrees and you are either in prison or flipping burgers? How’s it feel being in a low wage job paying child support? This is what’s happening in the white community. That’s not the white mans fault! Its the 1% who don’t care about you or me for that matter. Barrack Obama doesn’t give a fuck about you and you still voted for him based on the colour of his skin! What’s he done for black men? “My Brothers keeper” is a start That’s going to help a couple of you, but that’s it! What’s Jesse or Al done too help out the black man?
        “Most whites in the US do not care about most blacks in the US” Nothing could be further from the truth. This is not a white mans movement, brother! Whether you like it or not, you and yours are going to have too soldier up with us if were too change shit!
        There is plenty of room for you over here at AVFM!

        1. I think it is true that “most whites in the US do not care about most blacks in the US” — not because of race, but essentially because most of us don’t care (I mean in a way that would require us to actually try to DO something about it, rather than just “care” or “think” about it) about anybody outside our immediate family/friends circle. I always used to say to my son, “Nobody goes to bed at night thinking about you and how you’re really doing — you better think about that yourself and plan accordingly.”

        2. “Dude that’s not true!”

          Uhh, what?

          “Those rules your referring too, are class rules.”

          I wish it was. I was not born in the US, so the aspect of class did not really matter when I moved to the US. It was simply the matter of separation between the different groups. I did not fit in any particular group. Though I did notice the black tables, the white tables, etc. When it comes to Americans I figured they would mix, you know whites and black Americans, and everyone else would stick together based on their ethnicity. If you did not notice the class group mixed up in race in high school, I cannot help you there.

          “How’s it feel to watch your sisters go on to get graduate degrees and you are either in prison or flipping burgers?”

          I do not know. I made sure to stay away from trouble. Law said no drug, and I said take them away sir..If I was living in the 50s, and 60s I would be more or less with Malcolm X rather than King. Why try to integrate with people that despise you simply because of your skin color? And you think what whites care much more about blacks in the US? wake up and smell the coffee. It was not true 50 years ago, and it sure is not true today.

          “How’s it feel being in a low wage job paying child support?”

          I have no idea. Baby mama drama free.

          “This is what’s happening in both of our communities.”

          No, this was happening way before in the black community at a higher proportion. The same way abortion happens at a higher rate in the black population.

          “That’s not the white mans fault!”

          You think I am blaming one side and exempt the other? Nope. I hope both sides responsible for their actions.

          “Its the 1% who don’t care about you or me for that matter.”

          Yeah, so? What do I care about the 1%?

          “Barrack Obama doesn’t give a fuck about you and you still voted for him based on the colour of his skin!”

          Who in the world told you that I voted for BO? Never voted in my life, nor is it something that I plan on doing. But are you saying no white person ever voted for a president in the past, simply because he was white? And you also blacks are unable to decide who their leaders will?

          “That’s going to help a couple of you, but that’s it!”

          Who are the you? Simply because I am black in America I fall under a category I never asked for. That is the main issue here that is mind boggling to me. Why do you guys focus so much on someone’s skin color and “race”? Why in the world do you want someone to put an X in a little box to say that he is white, black, asian, latino? I’ve been in so many countries where there are different ethnicities and yet such questions do not exist. It is just unbelievable here in the US how much emphasis is put on that.

          “What’s Jesse or Al done too help out the black man?”

          Google is your best friend.

          “This is not a white mans movement, brother! Whether you like it or not, you and yours are going to have too soldier up with us if were too change shit!”

          No thanks. I am going my own way. I left the US three years ago, and I came back recently, and I just want to get out as soon as possible. I could not even go one day without some cop harassing me for no reason what’s so ever. There are certain issues when outside I just do not encounter them. There is a growing group of black men who are more and more just fed up with things. Take the pill and live it at that. After all of the years of suffering, why stay when there are other options? I have friends all over the world. Of different backgrounds, skin tones, heights, eye colors, and whatever fits in between. Color does not matter much to me, but in the US it seems that’s something that will always be a divided line. You can see it by the amount of friends one group has of the other.

          What I’ve observed over the years a black person will have ton of white associates, while the reverse is not true. May be one, or two. May be, but that’s the norm. It’s quite telling don’t you think?

    1. This article is a goal mine for AVFM….If we take the initiative and frame the story for what it really is….which is the “overbloating” of American law enforcement!!!

      If we let main stream media keep spinning this story into the ole black / white diversionary tactic…than MRA’s have lost a very important opportunity!!!

      1. Do we know for certain that the policeman in question was not justified in the use of deadly force? If we have incontrovertible evidence, then I will agree with you.

        1. Bro, i think its a diversionary tactic to dwell on this aspect…the bottom line here is that Americans were disturbed at the militarization of street cops!! The militarization of street cops is a result of the massive federal pork bloating triangles!!!
          But i will comment on youre point (but refuse to be sompletelly sidetracked by it)… If Brown robbed that store like the video showed he did , by bullying that old man…than its quite likely he attacked an officer. If he attacked an officer he should have been shot in the legs a couple times to slow him down. Yes…shooting him execution style was an overreach!! Shooting him in the stomach or legs would have worked just fine!!!

  20. Folks this is very important……..I challenge all MRA’s to not let main stream media Take this initiative away from us!!! Keep the heat on the “Overbloating” and militarization of American law enforcement!!!, and don’t let them spin this story into the same old black versus white division!!!

  21. If we keep letting this ferguson situation be hijacked into the classic Black versus white narative….we will have lost this very important battle!!!

    This is our chance to gain the initiative…and keep the discussions on the perverse “Overbloating” and subsequent militarization of American law enforcement. Stay the course my friends!!!

  22. This only heads into the abyss of racial politics and as an MRA I step back from it. Anything tied to politics is a minefield. When we are strong and well defined we can walk into such a field, but until then, –air the story and step away.

  23. Cops are not supposed to shot or not shoot people based on their worthiness. That is a brutal authoritarian POV.
    Brown was shot 6 times. Twice to the head. There is an epidemic of police violence in the US, and your pathetic attempt at humor places you on the side of the authoritarian killers..

  24. Human rights are a universal ideal, and are routinely monitored internationally.
    Your excessively emotional screed, demonstrates a profound ignorance, and a generally violent nature. Frankly, you seem a questionable ally of the Men’s Movement.

    1. Due Process Rights (Innocent until proven guilty) are an American ideal. Neither party has been shown to be innocent or guilty. Yes. It IS jumping the gun to presume guilt of the police officer, and George Zimmerman was neither white, nor was he law enforcement, nor was his act racially motivated. In fact, George Zimmerman, being Hispanic and Jewish, was a “protected class” minority and would have elicited howls of racism if HE had been shot by a white officer. Including the Trayvon Martin case in this screed was excessively emotional and profoundly ignorant.

      Frankly, you seem a questionable ally of the Men’s Movement.

      1. I never mentioned Zimmerman, Suzie. So I have no idea what your on about. The comment I responded to was a jingoistic attack on the the legitimacy of the international movement for human rights, and that makes the comment’s poster a questionable ally of the men’s human rights movement, or any human rights movement.

        Your idiotic accusation that I’m a “questionable ally of the Men’s Movement” was a very juvenile “I know you are but what am I” kind of response. Next time try to back up your idiotic insults.

        1. “Next time try to back up your idiotic insults.”

          “racist, right wing nut that doesn’t like black men very much”.

          …and I’ll leave it at that.

          1. Actually, toots – I just repeated your own words back at you.

            I know. You’re oppressed so it’s …different when YOU do it.

  25. Nice set of strawman arguments.

    Confounding how you are unable to see the difference between emptying a clip into someone and telling them
    Not to walk down the middle of the street.
    Carrying stolen property.

    How could you think that there are not non lethal means of dealing with unarmed and deranged people?

    This is 2014
    Not the 17 or 1800s

    We have put men on the moon.We can find better ways

    There are better ways and we can continue to develop better ways of subduing people.Especially people who do not have in their possession fire arms.

    Come on people we are smarter than this

  26. “Then I see in the preamble that most signers are from outside of the USA. This is our country, not yours.”

    This is the kind of ignoramus mindset some Americans have that are beyond the normal sense of reasoning. Do you have a passport? Have you ever been outside the US? In the past five years that I’ve been reading, and recently commenting on AVFM has been done outside of the US. Get a passport and get out of the US. Americans do not only live in the US.

  27. All the facts are not even out yet if it is a good shoot or not. I am stunned by the articles on this shooting posted here. If it was not for a white cop shooting a black man it would not be a story. This is a creation of the racist baiters and these articles are going along with their premise. I feel for the police officer who most likely shot the perp to protect himself. He is going to go through hell for the sins of our older generations.

  28. ” shoot the bastard ”

    ” that the baboon in the Whitehouse ”

    ” piece of crap he was. ”

    ” step up and man up ”

    “black moron ”

    Your comments are over the line sir.

    First warning ok?

    Continue to comment like this and you will be unwelcome here.

    1. No further warnings are required Frodo. I was under the impression you and yours spoke in defense of men – but from what I see, you speak in defense of criminal scum guilty of some truly unmanly behaviour – and scream about racism if anyone calls you on it. It childish, and disappointing.
      No need for a snotty reply, I will not be back this way again and if a tree falls in your forest I will not hear it. I may not be politically correct – but I am correct.

  29. Uhmmm … and Officer Wilson’s broken face? (Orbital floor fracture)

    I’ll wait for the Grand Jury’s decision, thank you. I’m sitting this one out.

      1. “Was that confirmed?”

        Go back and watch the videos of the officer moving around, and tell me at which point you saw him get medical attention, or even touching his face for that matter?

        1. That wasn’t the question I asked. Also, endorphins and adrenaline are fairly powerful drugs so it wouldn’t surprise me if he were walking around damaged and didn’t know it.

  30. I had wanted to attend the Mens Conference and show support for AVfM….WOW, am I glad I didn’t do that after seeing such tripe on this site.
    I will be staying FAR away from any AVfM functions after seeing this “article” and I’m quite sure I’m not alone.

  31. This “article” now makes me think AVfM is a front group with ulterior motives and not really a “mens rights” group at all.

      1. And that, I will definitely do…..
        Don’t get me wrong, I will still read AVfM as I have gotten alot out of it, but it will be a long, long time before I ever show support, as I was previously inclined to do.

  32. “Brown was shot so many times because he kept charging as the cop fired.”

    how do you know this? what evidence that you have that can substantiate this claim?

  33. “Brown was a criminal (as the store video shows) who used violence when honest citizens tried to prevent him steal cigars to make into blunts. ”

    Has anyone heard what the store had to say concerning this matter? Did he say Michael Brown stole the cigarettes? If so, post the link here. I’ve been searching, but can’t find it. Help?

    “Not steal food for his starving children because racists whites kept him down.”

    Yes because obviously racists whites never tried to keep the black man down, right? Never happened. Nope.

    “He was physically much larger than the cop,”

    Yes, and? I guess all cops should be afraid of guys who are much bigger than them. I mean jeez, have you ever heard of Eric Garner? What happened to him?

    “prevented the cop from exiting his own vehicle, assaulted the cop, forced a weapon discharge, then refused repeated orders to stop. Then he charged the cop and didn’t stop charging even as the cop fired.”

    how do you know all of these facts? Did you have a front sit window with a video camera that the rest of us didn’t?

    “ALL witness testimony so far verifies this.”


    “You’re one of these sociopathic Gen Y mongoloids who roll your eyes about cops and authority until the day someone introduces you to the fact that government doesn’t have the monopoly on violence… and you wet yourself and weep about the failure of those same cops to come to your aid in time.”

    ad hominem go home…you are adding nothing of value.

    1. Strike 1: This is a friendly warning that you may need to re-read our Comment Policy, in particular the bits about general attack. [Ref: 1192]

      Additional remarks:

      “get cancer and die soon”? Am I at the intolerant FreeThoughtBlogs?

      1. I have no tolerance for people who freely admit that they are “brutal authoritarians.” Do you?
        How do you suggest responding to people openly advocating brutal authoritarians? People who justify killing others because they are of little worth? Is such brutal rhetoric a violation of your comments policy?

      2. I re-read your comment policy. I noticed:

        “Bigotry. All humans deserve an equal opportunity to succeed and to be treated with dignity, therefore bigoted statements will not be tolerated.”

        “ask Stefan Molyneux to compare the cop Vs the guy he shot and see how they stack up in terms of worthiness.”

        Isn’t this bigotry, and denying an individual’s dignity? Isn’t it asserting that Brown was of less worth and therefore that justifies killing him?

        “I am a brutal authoritarian. So?”
        This strikes me as bigotry on steroids. An authoritarian brute and proud of it.
        I hope all brutal authoritarians get cancer and die soon. The world would be a far better place.

        1. When I saw ‘Aubrey Winters’ comment, I thought of canning his ass. He seems like a seagull commenter.
          “You people are beyond moronic”. “You should be ashamed for attaching your names to this GARBAGE.”
          I let it go, coz some amount of hostility is always there in these conversations. He says he’s a brutal authoritarian? I dont care. The quoted attacks on AVFM are a bigger concern for me. If some commenter does this repeatedly or goes over the pale, then I butt in.
          There is definitely some amount of subjectivity here.
          I have struggled with precise characterization of bigotry, racism, etc. Not just in the MRM, but on the wider internet. So I prefer you guys just say your piece and move on.

          1. Thank you for your reasoned response. I’ve never written before that I hoped someone would die. His unabashed embrace of authoritarianism, combined with his general arrogance and hostility was hard to deal with calmly, but I will try to tone it down in the future.

  34. The media is going to try and spin the story away from the “Overbloating” and subsequent militarization of American law enforcement…this was a great opportunity for the MRM..pleas don’t let it slip away from us!!!

  35. sondjata olatunji

    This should have never been posted. The issue at hand in Ferguson was not about gender. I’m black and I’m tired of people, outsiders, using incidences in black communities to push their own agendas. It needs to stop.

    1. I don’t have all the facts about this situation and my gut says it’s not a good idea to pitch in on one side or the other at this time. If people going to complain about all men being treated like rapists, they shouldn’t be treating all police like murderers. I note three innocent elderly people were gunned down at point blank range this week because they dared try and stop a man from stealing a car. Where are their protests? I don’t want anyone victimized as a result of their race, but I’m damned if I’m going to STFU about decent people somehow being regarded as fair game for violent criminals as long as it’s the right sort of criminal killing them, and not a criminal in a uniform.

  36. “prevented the cop from exiting his own vehicle”

    The cop could have driven up or back at any speed and called for help.

    Im asking that our police use a bit more common sense .

    As for

    “armchair warrior”


    ” someone introduces you to the fact that government doesn’t have the monopoly on violence.. ”

    You sir have no idea where i have lived in the past and had to rely on myself.

    And as to

    “sociopathic Gen Y mongoloids”

    I respectfully ask you carefully to read this

  37. Strike 1: This is a friendly warning that you may need to re-read our Comment Policy, in particular the bits about general insult (particularly with respect to staff and authors). [Ref: 1224]

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