Elam vs Frost: Round 4

[dropcap]P[/dropcap]aul has two main arguments in his latest installment. Three, if you count that I am a shallow, self-absorbed, obfuscating chimp, among other things. Fortunately, both PUAs and MRAs agree that the correct response to inconsequential womanly histrionics is to ignore them, so I will limit myself to the first two.

On risk management, let me outsource this to a comment by Zatarra:

“I think their failure to incorporate risk management calls irrefutable bullshit on that.”

I am not sure where you are getting the idea that Game does not incorporate risk management. Your initial article referenced Roissy. Did you go his site and search for anything on risk management. I did.









There are so many more. It took me three minutes to find these.

Incidentally, here’s my April Fool’s post, and follow up. Not only do I warn my readers about the dangers of marriage, I do it with style. The truth is that the majority of the Game blogs – certainly those on trial here, i.e. the one you specifically called out, and the one whose author you accepted a debate with – are well aware of the risks that the current environment poses to sexually active men.

The second point Paul makes is that his teachings on the arts of seduction are an effective substitute for reading the likes of Roissy. From yesterday’s post:

“To the contrary, AVfM is very much interested in improving relationships with women …. by advocating for their uncompromised and unambiguous accountability in matters personal.

That insistence on personal accountability goes a long way toward improving relationships in my own life, with men and women alike. It helps me maintain peace of mind, eliminates most drama and risk, and has never cost me a piece of ass that I wanted. Rather it enhances the quality of all people I choose to associate with because I screen out the dead weight early on, before they can cause real problems or simply suck up time out of my life that I will never get back.”

I agree with this. Our culture teaches young men to accept illogical, unreasonable women as a fact of life. Men should refuse to accept that.

But is this advice (plus, of course, take a shower) sufficient for young men today, navigating the treacherous waters of sex and dating in a poisonous society, culture and legal system?


Paul, let me tell you what it’s like to be a young man today.

Women’s sexual liberation has turned the sexual marketplace into a winner-take-all jungle, and we have been dropped into this quagmire dick-first. The problem is compounded by our culture’s demonization of healthy masculine values, and the viciously anti-male bias in our social norms and justice system.

Some men will consider this world and say, “No Thanks.” Hence, the herbivores, coming soon en masse to a continent near you.

As for the rest of us, we need to learn how to meet, seduce, and have fulfilling relationships with women.

Yes, I realize we don’t need sex and companionship, in the same way we need food and oxygen. But we desperately want it. The desire is woven into our genes more tightly than any other. Some young men who choose a life of celibacy will claim to not feel this desire. Most are lying to themselves. The rest need to get their testosterone levels checked.

For the 95% of men who choose a life that involves the pursuit of women, the challenge they face is far greater than Elam, Alek, and their occasional echoers will admit. They want to tell you, their readers, that you don’t need Game. Take a shower. Stand next to women. No further discussion needed.

Perhaps this advice, combined with a simple introduction, is sufficient for a decent-looking man, with some degree of social savvy, to get laid. I grant, there are women for whom Shower Game will suffice.

But ‘getting laid’ is not a binary value. In a healthy man’s mind, there is more to life than just ‘getting laid’ and ‘not getting laid.’ Do I want to get my dick wet? Sure. But that’s not all:

[unordered_list style=”arrow”]

  • I want to consistently have one-night stands with extraordinarily beautiful, smart and interesting women.
  • I want to consistently be in relationships with beautiful, brilliant, kind, sweet, generous women.
  • Eventually, I want to find the most incredible woman I’ve ever met in my life, and I want to have children with her.


Individually, these are all bold and challenging goals. Combined, they strain the boundaries of reality. Less than one-tenth of one-percent of men can honestly claim to have achieved the life that I desire. I have unashamedly set my sights on being the sort of man who can literally take his pick of women.

While pursuing this life, I also want to avoid the dangers endemic to being a man in the 21st century western world. Divorce theft. FRAs. Crazy girls poisoning my dog or cutting my dick off in my sleep.

So you see, the men of my generation have a lot to learn. We have our work cut out for us. This is especially the case if we want to limit your relationships to the cream of the crop – the most attractive, smartest, sweetest, most trust-worthy women in the United States. Paul, have you seen the women in this country? The number that are bangable, let alone dateable, is not great. And I’m competing with every non-dumpster-diving man for those select few.

Fortunately, I’ve found a few resources that have helped provide a little light on this dark path. Roosh offers simple, natural-feeling examples of how he meets and seduces women. Roissy has introduced an entire generation of young men to Red Pill ideas by interspersing them within practical advice on the nuts and bolts of seduction, and occasional musings on the inevitable downfall of western civilization. Dagonet, FFY, and Gmac write about their lives and experiences, not as a professor lectures his students, but rather as young men swapping war stories. I write about game and sexual politics partly because it interests me, but also because learning how to have fulfilling relationships with women is an important priority to the vast majority of healthy young men.

These men, like me, want to acquire whatever tools they can to improve their fortunes with women. That’s what Game is. That’s how we define it. If you would rather score points on some fictionalized caricature of the seduction community that turns its members into effeminate hipsters, prostrates itself before women, sells overpriced seminars, and values pussy as the one and only worthy goal in life, go pick a fight with them. As it stands, you called out Roissy, and you’re debating me. So let me tell you a little bit about the community we’re a part of:

1) We write about Game

There is no upper limit to how successful a man can be with women. Paul, has your ambition hit its limit at the woman with whom you are currently in a relationship? Non-celibate commenters, can you honestly look in the mirror and tell yourself that you don’t want more and better? I can’t. No one I’ve linked to can. We are addicted to becoming better versions of ourselves, and we will hopefully not rest while our hearts still beat.

2) We write about Game as one facet of a general commitment to self-improvement and better living

It’s actually somewhat ironic that I wound up carrying the ‘Gamer’ torch in this debate, since only about one-fifth of my posts are Game-related. The rest is about Paleolithic nutrition, personal finance and career choices, productivity and focus, and finding meaning in a world that doesn’t seem to have a lot of it.

As a man who is ruthlessly dedicated to discipline and conscious living in every other aspect of his life, I see no reason to make an exception for my relationships with women. I’ll say it again: Having my pick of women to have sex and relationships with is vitally important in my life. Is this because of my ego? A bit. Because society has conditioned me? I can’t disprove that. But the overwhelming impetus behind my desire to bang hot women is that it’s encoded in my DNA.

Among virtually every man my age, this is an enduring and unchangeable fact of life. Nor would I change it, if I could. As men, we love sex, we love women, and we love that we love sex and women. To deny it would be to live a fraction of life. Does that make me pussy-centric? Well Paul, I guess I’m just pussy-centric.


In the interest of moving this conversation forward, I hope you can grant me this premise: Seducing high-quality women is not easy. The vast majority of men in the world would like to do it, but they cannot. Maybe it’s easy for you and many of your commenters (although as a general rule, I take internet tough-guys’ claims to sexual prowess with a shaker of salt). But it’s not easy for the vast majority of men. Those of you in the live viewing audience, don’t take my word for it – just look around you in the real world. Sleeping with 9s and 10s on a regular basis is difficult.

Now, on top of that challenge, the men of my generation must contend with the very real issues that A Voice For Men focuses on. The legal reality of marriage. False rape and sexual harassment charges. The poisonous effects of unchecked anti-male bias of our pop culture and education system.

This is the world that I live in. This is the world that the young men of my generation are trying to understand. We desperately need guidance, advice, leadership.

We need a hell of a lot more than “just take a shower.” If Shower Game is the best that A Voice For Men can do, than the question is closed. Young men need a better source of information about women and dating. The Roissysphere is it.

Recommended Content